Courageous Conversations About Our Schools podcast

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The Transformative Power of Curiosity - A Conversation with Scott Shigeoka (Ep. 38) 43:48

27 päivää sitten43:48

43:48

Curiosity has been a common theme in this podcast. Conflict experts like my guests Amanda Ripley , Monica Guzman , and Peter Coleman say being curious and less judgmental is often a better way out of toxic conflict than making stronger arguments or presenting more facts. And, as we heard from our recent guest, Tim Shriver , it’s a much better alternative than treating one’s adversaries with contempt, which often makes matters worse. “Contempt only makes an enemy for your cause,” he says. But how does curiosity work? How can we be curious about people whose perspectives we reject? What makes us incurious ? I have not encountered anyone more qualified to answer these questions than Scott Shigeoka. Scott has devoted decades thinking about, studying, and talking with people about curiosity, and he recently wrote a book on the subject called Seek - How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World . His study of the concept leads him to distinguish between shallow and deep curiosity and to warn readers about “predatory curiosity” and “performative curiosity.” In this episode, Scott explains why curiosity is so powerful, not just as a way out of toxic conflict but as a path to understanding the world and others on a deeper level. For these reasons, it’s something that must be cultivated in schools. One of the questions I was curious about is, What makes students, or all of us for that matter, incurious? What gets in the way? Are some of us simply born to be more curious, or can it be taught? Can the desire to understand be extinguished? Tune in to hear Scott’s answers to these questions and his reflections on the various ways curiosity can spark deeper learning and strengthen our schools. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Why These Students Are Rejecting Contempt and Embracing Dignity (Ep. 37) 50:30

7 weeks sitten50:30

50:30

In our previous episode (Ep. 36) , Tim Shriver America’s widening political and social divides are, surprisingly, not due to our differences. “We’ve always had differences,” he says, “Contempt is the problem.” Shriver explains why treating others with dignity is more likely to produce the results we want and why contempt usually does the opposite. He and his colleagues created the Dignity Index to help us recognize the various ways we can regard our adversaries—either with contempt or with dignity. In the current episode, Futernick interviews four college students who are ambassadors for Students for Dignity , an organization with over 25 chapters on college campuses across the county. Preston Brightwell, the founder of this organization, also participates. Each student explains how he or she uses the Dignity Index to assess their interactions and help others see the virtues of dignity over contempt. Key questions addressed in this conversation: Why did you choose to get involved with Student for Dignity? How have you experienced contempt or been contemptuous yourself? What fuels contempt (adult models, social media)? What pushback do you get from other students who may be reluctant to treat their adversaries with dignity? What can students do if they want to get involved? Notable Quotes I feel like there are moments where we push for a world of dignity, but we don't hold friends accountable when they're being contemptuous. And it's the level at which when you're throwing contempt at me or my loved ones, I will react, but when my loved ones throw contempt at you, I'm going to turn a blind eye. - Iradukunda Manikandan ### I would say what frequently fuels contempt is that it's much easier. It gives you that spike of adrenaline. You tend to build your in-group because the minute that you say something fiery on social media, everyone who agrees with you is like, YEAH! And then you feel seen. It's much less interesting to say, “I don't agree with that.” And no one watches that on TikTok. - Alexa Merril ### I really think contempt breeds contempt. When our dignity is violated, it's easy and almost justified to respond with contempt. And so it's just contempt, contempt, contempt. And somebody has to be the one to take a step back and say, “I am going to respond with dignity.” - David Witt Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Getting Students (and Adults) to Respect One Another’s Dignity - A Conversation with Tim Shriver (Ep. 36) 54:19

9 weeks sitten54:19

54:19

Tim Shriver is a member of the Kennedy family, Chairman of Special Olympics International, co-founder of UNITE, and a former teacher. In this wide-ranging conversation with host Ken Futernick, Shriver describes a tool he co-created called the Dignity Index, and he describes how educators are using it to address our widening political and social divides. “We built it because there's an issue in our culture, in our families, in our homes, and in our schools that we haven't paid that much attention to. And the issue is how we treat each other when we disagree.” The Index is a framework that allows students (and politicians and educators) to examine their interactions, with the goal of reducing contempt and promoting a sense of dignity toward others. “Most people think the problem is that we have such [great] differences in our country. Our view is that's not a problem,” Shriver says. “We've always had differences…Difference is not the problem… Contempt is the problem.” How Educators Are Using the Index Shriver says students in history classes are using the Index to score speeches from historical figures like Abraham Lincoln, William Jennings Bryan, Harriet Tubman, and Martin Luther King Jr. “Students learn how to dissect the rhetoric in our political history, looking for whether this particular figure used dignity or contempt. And, we have other elementary school teachers who are creating codes of conduct using the Index. A school district in the Salt Lake City School District,” Shriver says, “has created what they call the five and up rule.” When students disagree, teachers help students use language in the upper half of the index (i.e., levels 5-8) - language that views others with dignity rather than contempt. Shriver says his organization has received requests from school boards asking for help with people who are “fired up and angry” over one issue or another. They want to know how to get them to use dignity language rather than dehumanizing and humiliating people with different perspectives. Isn’t Contemp Warranted at Times? Reflecting on an objection some might have to this approach, Ken asks, “Aren’t there some acts and some people who just aren’t dignified themselves, whose acts are awful. How can you hold this belief about a person who commits heinous acts or has really awful political views that hurt people… How can you (or should you) still feel a sense of dignity towards that person or those actions?” The problem, Shriver says, is that the alternative, contempt, “makes an enemy for your cause.” Whether the target of one’s contempt is a politician or another student, the outcome is always the same. That person’s views and actions are more , not less, likely to persist. What makes matters worse, Shriver says, is that contempt in today’s culture has become “glorified and rewarded, and it’s making all of us less happy and less healthy.” Schools Play a Vital Role Shriver concludes with this inspiring reflection on educators' critical role in holding our nation together. “I started my career as a teacher. When I look to the institutions of this nation, and I look to who and where are people who know that everybody deserves a chance, where are the people who know that hope and development are the actual work of community building and nation building? Where are the people who trust that new ideas can emerge? It's schools.” Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Schools Are Abandoning DEI. How a Different Approach Can Preserve It (Ep. 35) 58:36

12 weeks sitten58:36

58:36

School mission statements across the county commonly included language about Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. DEI training for educators was also common. But that’s changed in recent years as school culture wars erupted around the books students have access to: how students learn about history, race, and gender identity, and anything that smacks of “woke” ideology. DEI, as perceived by its advocates, is a unifying concept, but because a growing segment of the population perceives it as a divisive, alienating, and controversial, school officials in many districts have stricken DEI language from their mission statements. Many have eliminated DEI personnel positions and the trainings they once offered. My two guests, Channa Pitt and Dennis DiMaggio, both with extensive experience with DEI programs, weigh in on the causes of the backlash, and they offer concrete ideas that could lessen the resistance to DEI to the point where educators, parents, and students would embrace it. The key, they say, is to shift away top-down training from DEI “experts,” to authentic and safe engagement where individual identities are not placed in neat categories (e.g., oppressor and “oppressed” or “privileged” and “victims”). They suggest focusing on personal narratives and memoirs to build empathy and understanding across differences, focusing on shared values rather than divisive political rhetoric, and engaging in open, curious conversations where people feel heard and respected rather than judged. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Teachers Are Afraid to Talk About the 2024 Election (Ep. 34) 41:37

19 weeks sitten41:37

41:37

One would think that schools are the perfect place for students to learn about elections. What better opportunity to use the critical thinking skills they’ve learned in making sense of what the candidates are saying and to distinguish credible information from what they often encounter on social and mainstream media? These skills would certainly serve them well after the election when there are sure to be protests, claims, and counterclaims about election fraud and tampering. However, many teachers said they wouldn’t be discussing the 2024 election between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump, according to a recent survey conducted by EdWeek. Many cited concerns about parent complaints, and others worried that students could not discuss the election respectfully. My three guests—a college freshman, two university educators, and a communications director—lament that polarization and fear keep politics and healthy conflict out of the classroom. Each one suggests ways to turn this around, and they describe the benefits of doing so for all Americans. What’s especially interesting about this conversation is that one would be hard-pressed to identify my guests’ party affiliations. You will, however, have to ignore the fact that two of them say early on that they are leaders of young Republican groups in Texas. From my vantage point, this is yet another sign that when we Americans explore their core values, we fundamentally want the same things from our schools. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Bold, Effective Leadership in Polarized Times - An Illuminating Conversation with Katy Anthes (Ep. 33) 34:42

19 weeks sitten34:42

34:42

This episode will interest anyone interested in what it takes to successfully lead a politically diverse school board (or any such organization) in these highly polarized times. My guest, Dr. Katy Anthes, did just that as Colorado’s Commissioner of Education from 2016 to 2023 by building trust, getting leaders to agree on norms about how they would disagree, and developing a common vision of education that members of her state board could embrace. Rather than avoiding sharp disagreements over questions about standardized testing, state standards, and how history should be taught, she leaned into “healthy conflict”— the kind that is productive and allows for progress even among those with opposing perspectives. Anthes addresses a question, around the 17-minute mark, that she often encounters: When finding a middle ground is needed to move things forward, do we have to compromise our values and beliefs? A question she’s still pondering: How to navigate complex and contentious issues in the presence of “conflict entrepreneurs”—those who promote conflict for their own financial or political gain. Tune in and learn from one of our country's most effective educational leaders. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Meet Aaron Stark - Almost a School Shooter (Ep. 32) 40:24

20 weeks sitten40:24

40:24

Ever wonder what goes on in the mind of a school shooter? Or, why someone chooses to kill innocent people? My guest, Aaron Stark, was ready to commit mass murder but decided, at the last minute, not to follow through with his plan. He also chose not to kill himself. In this episode, you’ll hear Aaron’s harrowing story of abuse, neglect, and trauma, and you’ll find out what it took to prevent yet another tragedy that would have contributed to America’s epidemic of gun violence. There’s no doubt that mental health services are a vital part of the solution, but in Aaron’s case, it was a friend who extended kindness and compassion - someone who saw Aaron as “a good person with a crap life” - that made the difference. So many questions to ponder. Here’s one for educators: In these hyper-polarized times when it’s so easy (and perversely rewarding) to bully others on social media, what will it take to get people to treat others, especially those who are struggling, with kindness rather than cruelty? Tune in to hear Aaron’s harrowing story and what he thinks will make a difference. Here’s a clue: Convince people “to give love to the ones that you think deserve it the least because they need it the most .” Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Better Mental Health Can Reduce Gun Violence in Schools. Do We Have the Will to Promote It? Part 2 (Ep. 31) 26:20

25 weeks sitten26:20

26:20

One day after interviewing clinical psychologist Hayley Watson for Part 1 of this two-part series about the need for better mental health support in schools, Colt Gray, a 14-year-old student at Apalachee High School in Winder, Georgia walked onto campus with a military-style rifle and killed two other students and two math teachers. He also injured at least 8 others before he was taken into custody. According to the shooter’s aunt Annie Brown , had been “begging for help from everyone around him.” Colt’s father, who has now been charged with several serious crimes, said that his son was “getting picked on at school,” and that other students “just ridiculed him day after day after day.” Key takeaways from my conversation with Dr. Watson: The need to understand the shooter's perspective and the factors that may have contributed to his actions, rather than simply labeling him as "evil." The lack of adequate mental health resources and support for students who are struggling, and the importance of preventative measures such as teaching coping skills and promoting social-emotional learning. The trauma experienced (not just in Georgia but across the country) by the entire school community, including students, teachers, and families, and the need to provide spaces for processing and healing. The importance of ongoing conversations and emotional support, rather than focusing exclusively on security measures or avoiding the issue altogether. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Better Mental Health Can Reduce Gun Violence in Schools. Do We Have the Will to Promote It? Part 1 (Ep. 30) 41:56

25 weeks sitten41:56

41:56

Immediately following the fatal shooting of two students and two math teachers at Apalachee High School in Georgia, the predictable debate over gun laws ensued. Less prominent were calls for another remedy for school gun violence that can have an immediate impact and, surprisingly, is not politically polarizing: mental health support. Colt Gray, the 14-year-old shooter had been “begging for help from everyone around him,” according to his aunt Annie Brown . It appears he was unable to find it. Unfortunately, students like Gray are not alone. As the need for students’ mental health support has grown, mental health services in schools have declined sharply in recent years. Just 48 percent of the nation’s public schools report that they can meet their students’ mental health needs, according to a recent EdWeek report . My guest for this episode is Dr. Hayley Watson, a clinical psychologist with deep and personal knowledge of the mental health challenges students face. In this, the first of two episodes with Dr. Watson, she describes some of the factors, including bullying, that contribute to poor mental health, the effects it can have on student well-being and academic performance, and the skills that students can learn to better cope with emotionally challenging situations. Dr. Watson also shares the harrowing story from her own childhood that led to trauma that she kept secret for many years. This story ultimately instilled a passion for helping young people facing similar experiences. The school shooting at Apalachee High School occurred just one day after I recorded this interview. Dr. Watson joined me again for a follow-up conversation just a few days later to talk, specifically, about what educators can do to prevent gun violence and how they can help students, families, and their colleagues cope with the fear and the trauma so many across the country are feeling in the wake of this unspeakable tragedy. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Rich Harwood Rocks My World! (Ep. 29) 51:18

32 weeks sitten51:18

51:18

Rich Harwood knows a thing or two about depolarizing communities. He’s been doing it—successfully—for over 30 years, which is why I wanted to probe his thinking about the widening divides and the worrisome rise of culture wars that are threatening our public schools. Let me simply say, Rich rocked my world! Despite the extensive reading I’ve done on the subject and the interviews I’ve conducted with several conflict experts, I learned something new about the dynamics of conflict. And, more importantly, I learned some practical strategies one could use to help build stronger, healthier school communities—even prevent culture wars in deeply divided communities. A key takeaway for me is where to start conversations with school stakeholders. Rich suggests not jumping in around the hot issue that is dividing them (like Critical Race Theory, or DEI, library books, or race), but by having people share their dreams and aspirations for their children—by reframing the conversation around what they are for rather than what they are against . Amazingly, this can sometimes cause a hot issue, the type that can rapidly escalate into a full-blown culture war, to simply dissolve away (or be taken up later under better conditions) as those at odds with one another re-focus their collective energy on what they want to build together for their children. Pie-in-the-sky, Pollyanna fluff? Not really. As Rich explains, this is precisely what happened in Reading, Pennsylvania where mounting tensions over school policies dissipated after he and his team reframed the conversations around their shared visions for the future. And, as you will hear in one of the stories I share, I stumbled on the same phenomenon when I was invited in by a superintendent to defuse tensions among the district’s board and its administrative team. This insight about conflict and change is just one of several I learned during my interview with Rich. You will have to tune in to the whole episode to hear the others. You won’t be disappointed. Ken Futernick (Host) Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Middie Rising - A City Unites and Defuses a School Culture War (Ep. 1 of 3) 21:58

33 weeks sitten21:58

21:58

This is the first of three episodes about the unusual steps school leaders in Middletown, Ohio took to defuse tensions over race issues and health policies. These tensions could have led to a full-blown culture war - the kind of knock-down, drag out clashes that have pitted educators, parents, and even students against one another in a growing number of school districts across the country. In this episode you will hear why police had been called in to maintain order at a pivotal school board meeting in 2021. You’ll hear the voices of angry parents accusing Marlon Styles, the district’s first Black superintendent, of promoting racist practices in the district’s schools. And, you’ll hear others condemn the school board for violating students’ rights with their mandatory mask policy. In the second episode, you will learn about Superintendent Styles’ unusual response to the allegations. Instead of fighting back, he listened to his critics, asked for help, and rallied the city’s “quiet majority.” These counterintuitive steps defused the smoldering culture war, enabling the district to focus on other serious challenges affecting student learning. In the third episode, you will hear from Middletown’s community leaders and several outside observers who reflect on the tangible lessons this story teaches and the “credible” hope it offers to school and community leaders across the country. One of these observers is Amanda Ripley, author of the New York Time s bestselling book, High Conflict - Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out , who said, “I love the story because we desperately need examples of how people and communities manage to get out of dysfunctional conflict…The only way to learn is by finding these outliers of ‘positive deviance,’ communities that managed to not implode in conflict and learn from what they did.” Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Middie Rising - A City Unites and Defuses a School Culture War (Ep. 2 of 3) 26:20

33 weeks sitten26:20

26:20

In this second of three episodes about a culture war simmering in Middletown, Ohio, we learn how Superintendent Styles responds to allegations of racism and violations of students’ rights because of health mandates. Hint: He didn’t fight back. Instead, he listened to his critics. He then asked for help from the community’s “quiet majority,” a group he called “the Positive Gossipers,” and members of the Middletown Area Ministerial Alliance These counterintuitive steps helped to defuse the conflict and ultimately enabled the district to focus on serious challenges affecting student learning. The current administration, the Board recently launched “Middie Minutes Matter,” an initiative designed to reduce the high levels of chronic student absenteeism in the district. And they are receiving assistance from the same group of community leaders that supported the district was faced with a polarizing conflict. Tune in to the third and final episode to hear from Middletown’s community leaders and several outside observers who reflect on the tangible lessons this story teaches. One of these observers is Amanda Ripley, author of the New York Time s bestselling book, High Conflict - Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out , who said, “I love the story because we desperately need examples of how people and communities manage to get out of dysfunctional conflict.” Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Middie Rising - A City Unites and Defuses a School Culture War (Ep. 3 of 3) 41:11

33 weeks sitten41:11

41:11

In the final episode of this series, several people reflect on the lessons learned from Middletown’s successful efforts to avoid a costly culture war and to unify around an inclusive vision of education that all of its students. In addition to Middletown’s community leaders who share their takeaways from this story, Amanda Ripley, an internationally recognized expert on conflict, provides powerful insights into the less visible dynamics at play. Trudy Palmer, the Christian Science Monitor’s cover story editor, explains why this story offers “credible hope" for communities looking for tangible ways to unify and discover common ground. Finally, we hear from Dr. Carl Cohn, an experienced urban superintendent who explains why the lessons learned from the Middletown story are vital for school leaders across the country. Key lessons: Building and maintaining healthy relationships within a community, especially before a crisis occurs, is crucial to preventing and managing conflicts. Creating ongoing opportunities for authentic dialogue among educators, board members, parents, and students is essential to fostering trust and healthy conflict. Journalists and media outlets should strive to go beyond reporting exclusively on conflict and outrage and to cover stories, like this one in Middletown, that provide “credible hope” for change. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Bridging Youth Divides Through Morning Classroom Conversations (Ep. 25) 33:37

48 weeks sitten33:37

33:37

This podcast usually focuses on how adults can have less contentious, more fruitful conversations about schools, but my two guests on this episode have plenty to say about the need to strengthen communication and relationships among young people . In fact, Nina Murphy and Kellie Dromboski (along with Maurice Elias) have written a book on the subject called, Morning Classroom Conversations. They show how devoting just 15 minutes each day for genuine conversation can have significant social, emotional, and academic benefits. By creating “brave spaces” for student conversation, students learn how limiting, even damaging, modern day interactions can be. “Without that perspective, many young people’s view of themselves and their future is at the mercy of how their social media communications are made and responded to. As we know all too well, this can take the extreme form of making adolescents hypersensitive to cyberbullying—even to the point of anxiety, depression, of suicidality,” they write. And to educators who say, “We have so much to cover, especially with the learning loss from the pandemic, that we don’t have time to add one more thing into our day,” Murphy, a school psychologist, says (around the 25:20 mark), “It takes more time when we don’t do it because of the time it takes to recover from all of the other difficulties students are having.” She says high school teachers at her school frequently tell her, “…they’ve had to stop a lesson because so-and-so was crying or because this one would not stop acting out or wouldn’t get off the phone…When you create that classroom community, you’re going to see less and less of those behaviors.” Their book contains a wealth of resources to help educators integrate morning conversations into their schools and classrooms. Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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Politics in the Classroom in these Divided Times? Now More Than Ever, says Educator Diana Hess (Ep. 24) 32:16

48 weeks sitten32:16

32:16

It’s April 2024. Polarization in America is at an all-time high, and another highly contentious election season is fast approaching. Fears about teacher bias and the undue influence they might have over their students has raised suspicions among parents and has led several states to restrict what teachers can discuss with their students — like “divisive concepts” or subject matter that might cause students to feel anguish or discomfort because of their race. In response, many teachers now avoid controversial topics for fear they might be fired or lose their teaching licenses. Some have even quit because the restrictions and the suspicion about their motives has made their already challenging jobs even more difficult. My guest, Dr. Diana Hess, an educator and researcher who has studied teacher-student interactions, opposes this trend. “I think the job that we have as teachers is to help students understand the political environment in which they live. What are the important current events, what more importantly are the important controversial issues? And I don't think that we can really have a democracy that's going to be sustained without that.” She goes on to say that teachers should not only be permitted to discuss politics and controversial topics with their students, they should be required to do so. “I don't think we can have high quality civic education without current events and controversial issues.” Hess believes that if concerned parents and policy makers actually spent time in classrooms observing how the vast majority of teachers approach politics and controversies with their students, they’d be pleasantly surprised. “What we know from a lot of empirical evidence,” Hess says, “is that a teacher’s goal…is not to have students adopt their perspective. That is not why people go into teaching…When people go into teaching, they tend to say, ‘I really want to make sure that my students understand what's happening and that my students know enough to form their own views on the political issues of the day,’” Let us know what you think with a text message.…

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