Reed Smith veterans: What service means to us ft. Shannon Llenza

Inclusivity Included: Powerful personal stories

Shannon Llenza, Assistant General Counsel at Microsoft and Commander, U.S. Navy Reserve (retired), reflects with Reed Smith data coordinator Mark Butterfield, a member of RSVets, Reed Smith’s veterans business inclusion group, on how her military service has impacted her legal, governmental, and corporate career.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included.

Mark: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. I'm Mark Butterfield. I'm a proud member of Reed Smith Vets here at Reed Smith, and your host for today's episode. With my own military service background and my ongoing doctoral studies, I'm deeply committed to exploring what service means in and beyond the military. Today, we have a truly unique guest, Shannon Llenza, a seasoned attorney and former member of Reed Smith's Business Leadership Council. She brings remarkable experience from both the military and corporate worlds. Shannon began her career as a full-time Navy JAG officer, moving into the reserves where she held key legal roles with the National Security Agency, the Department of Defense, and tackling issues with national impact in those roles. Now at Microsoft, she continues to apply the expertise that she builds, navigating critical intelligence and security matters. So Shannon, thank you so much for joining us to share your journey of service, leadership, and resilience.

Shannon: Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Mark: It's a real pleasure for me. I would like to start by asking, first of all, what motivated you to begin your journey with the Navy?

Shannon: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I didn't join the Navy until I actually commissioned my second year of law school. and the motivation to join the Navy is actually a funny story. It was my father who told me that I should go into the JAG Corps. And the reason he told me that is because there was this show called JAG that he loved and he thought it was just so cool. So he, you know, suggested it to me and I had no idea what the JAG Corps was. It never even occurred to me to join the military. At that time, I was 29 years old, so I was older. So I started exploring the opportunities my second year, and I interviewed with some JAGs. I was just really impressed by the program and the experience that I would be able to gain going into the JAG Corps. And so once I was offered a position, I sealed the deal and I went in. I commissioned and then I commissioned. Yeah, so it was great.

Mark: And did you have a family history of military service?

Shannon: You know, it's funny. No, no, I didn't have a family history of military service. In fact, I was the first person in my family to even graduate from college. So going to law school was a huge deal. And then joining the military was even a bigger deal. So, yeah, I'm the first.

Mark: Yeah, we have similar overlap there. I'm the same. It's been my grandparents that served in the sailor into the Second World War.

Shannon: Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Mark: And then, yeah, for me, again, one of the first to go to university as well in the family, which was, yeah, so very similar in those respects.

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, that's great.

Mark: You've held significant roles across the military and the civilian sectors that I've briefly alluded to, particularly in regards to things like national security. And has this background sort of shaped your approach to your current position and challenges at Microsoft?

Shannon: Yeah. So it's interesting. I got out of the JAG Corps after four years of active duty when I had my son, because my husband was also active duty. So it was kind of challenging for us. And that's when I went into the reserves. So when I got out of the Navy, I started working for the U.S. Government in various capacities that led to really a career in national security. I started at the Department of Defense, working on Guantanamo Habeas Matters. And then, like you said, I moved over to the National Security Agency and then ultimately ended up at the Department of the Justice writing counterintelligence and counterterrorism FISA's. The interesting thing in the JAG Corps and the reserves, I did serve in our national security litigation section for a period of time. So I did do some national security work as well in the JAG Corps. And the interesting link between the two really is how, when I had my job at the Department of Defense, I worked with the intelligence community, and that's when I really became interested in transitioning over into the intelligence community and becoming an attorney in that area. And it was people in the reserves that I knew that were working in the intelligence community that sort of helped me parlay my job from the Department of Defense into the National Security Agency and then into the Department of Justice. So even though the reserves, I wasn't directly involved in these agencies when I was in the reserves, the reserves had a huge part to play in me really advancing my career and helping me get to where I wanted to be in the intelligence community and government. And then the way that worked with Microsoft was really interesting. I actually applied for a job. My original job at Microsoft was, I was the attorney advising on when Microsoft would receive legal process from the federal government, state, local government, national security FISAs. And so all of that experience I had in the government really, really transitioned over to Microsoft so that I, you know, it was sort of a unicorn job at Microsoft. You had to have national security experience and FISA experience. And I was like, oh, my God, that's the job for me. Right. And so then that's how I was able to take all of that experience that I had in the U.S. Government and transfer it over to my role at Microsoft, my original role.

Mark: Yeah, it's a really unique and interesting CV for me to read through. Yeah. It's just so varied. I suppose you must have spent a lot of time sort of juggling these multiple roles and your family life and everything else. How do you balance that in terms of your service commitments, your family commitments, your various career roles?

Shannon: Yeah. You know, it was, it was challenging. It was hard because when I was full into the reserves and working full time, you know, my kids were little and my husband was active duty. So it was, it was definitely challenging. You know, it just, I just made the commitment to, to do that, that balance. And, you know, I, I honestly like looking back, like, I don't know how I did it. You know, I just did it. Right. It's like, you're sort of in it and I was committed to staying in the reserves. I just figured it out, I guess. The most important thing to me always was my family and taking care of them. What's interesting is when I was about 15 years into it back in 2000 or 17 years into it, I guess, back in 2019, I actually was tagged for an involuntary mobilization to Djibouti. And so at the time, my daughter was 9 and my son was 14. My husband had just gotten off active duty and they sent me away for about 15 months. I had 12 months boots on ground. You know, that was interesting and difficult. And, you know, again, it's just one of these things that you just get through it, right? Because you've made that commitment. And as much as I didn't want to go, and I didn't want to leave my daughter and my son, but you just got to do what you have said you're going to do.

Mark: Absolutely. And the 15 months, I'm always astonished by the U.S. duration. Our deployments in the British military are usually half that. So that length of separation must be really challenging. If you've got a husband who's in the service, some bit of understanding there as well.

Shannon: Yeah, he was definitely understanding. He, you know, as I worked and I was in the reserves and had kids, he did five deployments, much shorter. His were between as long as seven months, but then they would be about three or four months. So, so he, you know, I knew, you know, I had experienced a deployment, he was active duty, he knew what he was in for, but, but it was a really long time to leave, to leave my husband and my kids, you know, and then it actually overlapped with COVID as well. And so that, that made for an even more challenging experience. So yeah, it was, it was a little bit difficult.

Mark: I can imagine. So I suppose being in the military, you're, you're learning a lot of unique lessons. What unique lessons did you learn in the military about resilience, dealing with high stakes decisions and managing change, these sorts of things that could be potentially valuable to people in a corporate setting?

Shannon: Yeah. I think you learn how to manage change pretty easily. I think that things are always changing and moving and fluid, especially, for instance, I'll just go back to the deployment, right? You know, I mean, it was just, you're in a combat zone, even though it's Djibouti, things are moving quickly. My job was to advise the commanding officer of the base. So it was a lot of very, you know, there were decisions that had to be made, they had to be made quickly. And so you just, in that. Experience, really, it allowed me to become more confident in myself and understand like, okay, I am a good lawyer. I do understand this. I can't advise a commanding officer, right? And so it really just helped me gain confidence as an attorney and my abilities, and then also just helped me learn how to just roll through change and deal with issues as they came up. The resilience part definitely was there as well. Just staying strong while I was away from my family and staying on course with the military and making sure I was performing in the way I should be performing, even though I was thousands of miles away from my family. So it's, there's a lot of lessons to be learned in the military, a lot of, a lot of good lessons and, and just how to get things done. Right. I mean, the military is a place where, um, sometimes you'll get tasked with an issue or a problem. You will not have a lot of information. Um, and you just have to figure it out. And I have really learned over the years working in the military, just how to figure things out. And that doesn't mean figuring it out on my own. That means knowing who to go to, to help me figure out what, what the solution is to the problem that's being presented in front of me. But, and then it also removes that sort of fear of doing things that you're not comfortable with. You become comfortable with the uncomfortable things that you may have to do or solve because you, you, you don't have a choice, right? You're required. That's your job and you just need to figure it out. And so you, you become more comfortable with just dealing with issues and matters that may, may not be in your wheelhouse, but you can figure out who to go to and how to solve them.

Mark: You've also been involved quite heavily with pro bono work, it seems, in your time as well. Could you speak to that at all, about how you've managed to find the time to juggle all these aspects? Shanon: Yeah, you know, pro bono work is really important to me. And whether it's an asylum case, I've done several of those, or helping veterans get benefits that they are, you know, entitled to. I mean, it's just really important, I think. I mean, that's really one of the reasons I became an attorney. I became an attorney because I really wanted to be able to help people who could not help themselves or who could not navigate the law. I had a relative, my grandmother, where I watched her when I was a kid, unable to navigate the law for an issue she had related to, it was the DOW chemical implant issue that happened back in the 80s and 90s. She had breast cancer. I watched her try to fight for her rights and her health. It was so difficult, the legal challenges that she faced. I swore that I didn't ever want to be in that position, which is really one of the motivating reasons why I went to law school, but then also to help people like that who are in positions where they just needed help. For whatever it was that they were entitled to. And if I could help them in some way, then I absolutely, I'm there to do it. So, and I get so much pleasure out of it, really, especially when you get a good result. I've had, with asylum, I've had some not great results. Then I've had, you know, I helped an Afghan family come over here after we exited Bagram. And so I helped them with seeking asylum. And we got that. And that was really, you know, really rewarding. Or I helped a veteran, an Army combat veteran, get additional entitlements that he was entitled to. And that was great. So things like that are really important to me.

Mark: Absolutely. As a veteran yourself now, I understand. Are you recently retired, I understand, or retiring?

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I retired on April 1st. I did my 20 years. And on April 1st, I retired from the reserves. That is correct. So I am done.

Mark: Well, congratulations. You're welcome with open arms into the veteran community, I'm sure.

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Mark: Do you think you'll play an active role in the same sort of way that you have been doing?

Shannon: Probably pro bono wise, yeah. And Microsoft is very big into supporting pro bono work. We have a huge veterans community here at Microsoft, which I'm involved in. And, you know, so I'm definitely going to be staying involved in that and involved in pro bono work related to veterans going forward. Absolutely.

Mark: That's great to hear. As someone who's dedicated much of your life to service, what advice would you offer young people today about pursuing a career in either public service or the military?

Shannon: You know, I cannot express enough how, what a great benefit it is to either serve in the military or just serve in the government. And I even try to tell, it's funny because my son just started college and he's not interested in the military at all, which, you know, you can't make somebody go into the military if they don't want to. But I would tell anybody who is looking for a career or looking for, you know, even just serving for four or five years, that it's absolutely worth it, right? And the thing is that young people, when you're 19 and 20, you don't see when you're 55 years old, like I do now, right? Like I'm 54 and I'm like, all right, I only got five more years and I get that retirement, it. Right. And so, so it was 20 years and it, it was hard, but the benefit in the end is so great. You know, I, I, um, I'm going to get a retirement. I, I have the GI bill, so I'm going to be able to use that to put my daughter through college. My husband has a GI bill, so he was able to put my son through college. So, so, you know, we get healthcare and so, and then the experience, right? I mean, I came right out of law school and I started, I was a prosecutor and I'm prosecuting these, you know, fraud cases, rape cases, drug cases. I mean, you name it, it was insane, right? And so, and then the, and then the people you meet along the way, people that I have known my whole career that I will be friends with for the rest of my life. So there are just so many great benefits of being in the military. And the great thing now is you don't even have to serve 20 years to get a retirement. They have changed it so that you can serve just whatever period of time you serve, you will receive a benefit for that period of time. There's just not enough I can say about it. The people, the experience, the benefits that in the end, there's nothing like it. And And I'm so grateful that I did it.

Mark: I think that's really great to hear. I served for a much shorter period of time, just the four years. I did basic training, almost immediately deployed to Afghanistan straight afterwards for six months in total. But again, I knew what I was going into. The war was happening at the time. And then came back. Also, like you, went to Africa, but for training in Kenya for a short period. and then, yeah, deployed on a second tour of Afghanistan, which was completely different from the first. And then, yeah, at that point, I feel like my service as ended I think it was time for me to to move on and I was I was very fortunate I suppose that I started my family after I’d left the military um I think that was pretty wise decision on my part I would hate to have had to enjoy that separation that you you've already spoken about yeah. Incredible for for anybody to do that i think i think it's a very noble sacrifice.

Shannon: Oh thank you.

Mark: Is there a lesson from time in the military that sort of shapes the way that you approach life or how you approach work almost on a daily basis at all?

Shannon: You know, there is, and it sort of goes back to something I said earlier, and it's really about, I have a bias for action, right? I think I got that from the military. And so I think my work ethic, working hard, getting things done, being able to figure things out, all of that really came from my experience in the military and really shapes the way I perform and work at Microsoft, right? I'm not, I'm not scared to take on issues or projects that I might not be a hundred percent familiar with. You know, if you need to figure something out, you know, I'm the person who can probably figure it out really without a lot of information. I mean, I mean, and, and just when I mean work ethic, I mean really integrity, right? You know, doing, doing the right thing when nobody is looking. And that's really important. I think the military taught me, you know, all of those great lessons. And I use them, you know, every day when I'm working at Microsoft, for sure.

Mark: So this is a bit of a personal question for my own part, is that in some of my historical research that I've been doing, and although this isn't a U.S. issue, it's kind of a bit more of a global topic, I suppose. I think everyone will have strong opinions on this, is that in the concept of national service or conscription, it's something that's been raised relatively recently in Britain again, actually, with the prospect of national service being something that could be reintroduced.

Shannon: Requiring everyone to serve?

Mark: Yeah um and i was wondering if if you would think that was uh as somebody who has served in this position already whether you'd think it'd be something that would be would be valuable and worthwhile or something that you'd need to take with a certain degree of caution?

Shannon: You know I think that's really interesting because I think there is I think that it would be incredible if we could have national service I mean if we could have everybody have to serve two years I think I think it'd be incredibly valuable. You know, I think it, because when you're in the service, it's, it's something bigger than yourself. Right. And it's an experience like no other. And you are part of, you know, in our countries fighting for democracy and, and freedom. And that's what you're doing when you're serving. You're, you're the one who is, who is allowing and keeping the constitution moving. And, you know, and, and so I think, yeah, I think, I think national service. Would be a great idea. I mean, it would never happen in America. I mean, you have a draft, right? You might have a draft, but, but I just couldn't see national service happening, but I, I think it would be great if young people were required to serve a couple of years, either in the military or even in just public service. So they understand, you know, so they, So they understand what giving back is, what being part of something that's larger than themselves is. I think it would be a great thing.

Mark: Well, that's great to hear. Thank you.

Shannon: When you're saying they're talking about it in Britain, are they actually thinking of, is it something that's actually getting some legs? Are they moving on it?

Mark: I don't believe so. I think, actually, it's been more of a political football that's been tossed in there. But yeah, with our recent overturn of government, I'm not sure that it's going to be something that is reintroduced. But yeah, I would defer on how these legal things happened to you. But yeah, it's reared its head again. And it's one of those questions that I'm uncertain about. I think for some people, it's one of those careers that can be really rewarding and really valuable. It's not for everybody in all circumstances. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. It takes a certain personality. And I think forcing, well, not forcing, but legislating that people potentially could or should join as a matter of statutory requirements might be a bit of a problem. But yeah.

Shannon: Yeah, no, I totally get what you're saying.

Mark: Do you see the role of service changing in the future? And do you anticipate any challenges with service?

Shannon: If our secretary of defense is confirmed by the congress senate it sounds like he would like to make some changes so that that might be interesting you know stand by and see what happens i think he is against women in combat i think that that's one thing i don't think they are pro diversity and inclusion gays in the military transgender in the military so i think with the new administration coming in, depending on who gets confirmed to be Secretary of Defense. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the military. I think if the guy who's been nominated gets in, I think there'll be some pretty big changes to serving in the military.

Mark: As a woman who's served in the military, is that something that you've, you know, were you in the minority or is it much more inclusive? I mean, from my experience with the U.S. Military, it always seemed really diverse.

Shannon: It's funny how it's changed from even when I went in in 2000, let's see, I commissioned and I started, I was on active duty starting in 2002. It's funny how much has changed even since then, how much more aware we've become of diversity and inclusion and the benefits of it or accepting people for who they are. Women definitely are the minority. I mean, when I was in these meetings in Djibouti as a commanding officer's attorney, there were meetings where I was the only woman in the room. And that happens a lot, right? And so I think that we've made great strides so that women and minorities can excel in the military. And so it'll be sort of painful to see us go backwards if we no longer allow women in combat, because that will then probably prevent them from then rising up into the ranks, because the way you do that is through your combat experience and who you have commanded. And so if you can't command over combat commands, then you're going to be at a disadvantage to be able to promote up. So that'll make it more difficult. And I was thinking about the women who are currently... You know, I only know the Navy, right? And so you have women fighter pilots who, I mean, what's going to happen to them, right? You know, you have all these women who have trained, we've invested millions of dollars into these women flying airplanes and helicopters. And now, like, all of a sudden, they're no longer have the ability to go into combat. It seems a little short-sighted, but, you know, I guess we'll see what the new administration does.

Mark: Yeah, I think you touched on some really, really excellent points there. I think we'll return for the final summarizing question. I was just wondering if you think there's, when you think back on your time in the military, if there's a single story, a single moment that you could share with us that captures what service means to you?

Shannon: Probably when I was in Djibouti and COVID hit, you talk about a time where there was no playbook and no rules and nobody knew what to do. And it was March of 2020. I think it was March or April. The country of Djibouti had shut down, right? There was nobody going in and out. And we had all of these people on base and we were contained, right? And so... We were worried about COVID and COVID breaking out on base because it could be catastrophic, right? You have all these people contained in one base that's not very big. And you start getting the, you know, if it starts spreading, it could spread like wildfire. So we, I mean, it was just amazing the way that the commanding officer led the base and how everybody worked together. You know, everybody from everybody on the base, everybody in the health service center, the CBs. I mean, they went and they converted a building into an infirmary and beds so that if we started getting people sick, we could segregate them into like an infirmary area because Djibouti didn't have a hospital. It had a small medical facility. And the purpose of that medical facility was if people were injured in combat in Africa or wherever, they could come up to Djibouti, get triage, and then eventually get sent on to Germany, right? That's what would happen. So, I mean, all of these people worked together. They created this infirmary. We created rules for dining. It was just this incredible effort where everybody really just came together to work together for the safety and security of that base and to make sure people stayed safe. We ended up actually having one guy, he was a contractor, get COVID. And it was back in the day when COVID would hit. And it was, I mean, the guy within two days was on, he was intubated. And we only had five of those for like the base. And we had like five or eight. I mean, it was like, we did not have a lot of equipment. And so the medical facility. These doctors, these incredible doctors kept this guy alive with duct tape and nothing, right? I mean, literally, he was in this room. He was on oxygen. And we could not get him off the base because nobody would take him. We couldn't get an airplane to come take him. We couldn't find a country to take him. And I remember sitting in this call and it was just a bunch of high-level people trying to figure out what to do. And I'll never forget the medical doctor was like, if we don't get this guy off the base tomorrow, he is going to die. And it was like the Department of State came in and just all of these different agencies. Anyway, the Department of State intervened. We ended up getting the guy to Germany and he lived. And it was just this... I just found the whole, it was just incredible how everybody just worked together just to do everything they could during this pandemic to include save this guy's life, right? And it was just incredible watching how just everybody came together to make everything happen that needed to happen for the safety and security of all the people on that base.

Mark: That's really wonderful. And I think that's a perfect place for us to end. So thank you very much. I really appreciate your time.

Shannon: Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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