MMT50 - 232

Meeting Malkmus - a Pavement podcast

On this episode of the Pavement Top 50, jD has a lovely conversation with Zac from Amhearst about his Pavement Origin Story and song number 32

Transcript:

[1:02] Bob, what do you think about Transport as Arranged? Jamie.

I just think that, I think Transport as Arranged, when the record was made in

Kernersville, North Carolina with Mitch Easter,

was just kind of viewed and the feel around it was that, okay,

that's another song that definitely should be on the record.

But isn't the kind of song that it you know maybe should be a single or something

like that it was just it was just a song that was like really solid and good

hey this is westy from the rock and.

Track 3

[1:41] Roll band pavement and you're listening to the countdown hey it's jd here back

for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band pavement

week over week we're we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks

that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus and gluten.

Just joking, there's absolutely no gluten. Zero.

How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune

in to find out. So there's that.

This week, I'm joined by pavement superfan man, Zach from Amherst.

Dude, how the fuck are you?

Track 3

[2:21] I'm okay. How are you? I'm great. Thanks for asking.

It's good to be here with you. No, it's great to be here.

Yeah, I'm excited to be a part of this. Well, let's not dilly-dally.

Let's get right to it and go to your pavement origin story.

Yeah, I've listened to a few and sometimes they have really good stories,

but But mine's like, I think I was home from break from college or something.

And, uh, my brother and sister were like playing a mixed tape of things and,

and, uh, cut your hair came on and, uh, yeah.

And, um, and it was apparently it was being played on their radio station all the time.

So, uh, you know, and so at the time we would just constantly make copies of

whatever. So I had like crooked rain, uh, just sort of stuck in my car forever and just wore it out.

Track 3

[3:16] Um, but you know, it was kind of in the mix and then it was really more,

uh, wowies, always when it kind of took off, um, for me, um,

that was the first tour I saw them like that was, uh, you know,

but, um, so you got to experience it in real time.

Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Not quite slanted. And so I'm not,

I'm not that. No, but, but wowies alley. That's, that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah.

Um, so, so, um, on that tour, when you went to that tour, what, what were you thinking?

Track 3

[3:48] Well, I, so I, you know, I was, I was just obsessed with going to shows and seeing bands.

Um, and, uh, I was pretty psyched to get a ticket from Ohio originally.

Okay. And, uh, so I was pretty psyched to get a ticket in Cleveland,

which was still like two hours away from where I lived.

Um, and I was taking my little sister and, uh, yeah, it was just,

we were really excited. My dad even went along because he was worried about

taking my, I don't know, 14-year-old sister to the big city.

So yeah, I got to see them with Come and Dirty 3 in the Algorra Theater or Algorra

Ballroom, one of those in Cleveland.

Track 3

[4:34] But yeah, I just listened to Pavement nonstop

at at the time and um yes yeah

just it's like one of those like that's how

i always picture them they're just that's that night um and

i've seen them plenty of times since but uh yeah what

other shows have you seen uh so i you know i saw that one and then like that

summer i saw him at lollapalooza um it was before the infamous west virginia

mud fight um but But it was like when they came on right after Sinead O'Connor,

she was still on the tour at the time.

And then I saw them like, you know, so what was after that? Like Bright in the

Corners. I saw him a couple times on that tour.

Dude. Yeah. And then I saw him.

Track 3

[5:22] There's like one or two other times in there. And then I, like,

I remember that I did the one that really sticks out to me.

That was, uh, I saw their last North American show before they,

well, when they sort of, we thought they split up the first time. Right.

Um, for terror twilight in Cincinnati, Ohio at Bogart's.

Yeah. So yeah, I saw that. And then we thought, Oh, is this the end?

And you know, and then it was like maybe a couple of weeks later,

he did that infamous show somewhere in England where he's like,

Yeah, the Burstyn Academy. Yeah, he had handcuffs and everything.

So I saw him right before all that. And then I've seen him, like I saw him twice

on their first reunion tour.

And then I saw him once, like the year before last.

And I haven't been able to make any of the others since, but yeah.

So I've seen him a few times. Oh, yeah, you've seen him a lot.

That's great. And different eras as well.

Yeah, yeah. Very cool. My first time was the first reunion, right?

So that was my first time seeing them. Well, their reunion shows were like,

they're just so tight and so together.

Track 3

[6:28] Some of the early shows, they were sort of a mess. Like, I remember once watching

Stephen kicking Steve West off the kit and to show him how the part was supposed to be played.

What? Because they kept starting the song, and he kept screwing it up.

So he's like, no, no, no, no. And he went back there, and he played the part.

And then he went back behind his mic and got his guitar. And then I guess Steve played it.

The right way holy shit i've never

heard that story yeah that was uh in

columbus ohio that i think that was a brighton the corners tour i think yeah

damn so what are your what are your go-to uh tracks these days go-to records

rather so it always kind of like changes but i i tend to

be like between crooked rain and wowie zowie back and forth um i just uh like

i crooked rain is like a perfect album like perfectly see well i think pavement

secret is that they sequence every album perfectly.

Track 3

[7:33] Sometimes the songs, like sometimes there's weird stuff in between and sometimes

the songs are hits, but like, it's just perfectly sequenced.

And Crooked Rain is just a perfect record.

I think Wowie Zowie is just like bizarre and all over the place,

but still like well sequenced.

And then the only, my only issue with Wowie Zowie is that I think it finishes

with like three or four closers.

So it's like you hit one of those like last three or four tracks and you're

like, oh yeah, that was great.

Oh here's you know well that's a great way to close and then they have another so yeah.

Track 3

[8:07] That's awesome was there anything else you want to share about your pavement origin story,

oh um i don't like i just think you know this was like pavement was a band that

like like sort of binded my brother and sister and i together um we just uh

that's sort of weird sets of humor summer they're sort of strange like sports

fans um we all have like weird interactions,

with them here and there that we just kind of um i

don't know we're all awkward socially awkward and so like it so

you know i don't know we just kind of like um this is

oddball group that just always spoke to all of us and

sort of held us all together that's really cool that

you're into it with your brother and sister are they

both younger than you or yeah they are

yeah my brother's like a year and a half younger my sister's

like uh five five and a half years younger so you got to show them the way well

they i mean like i said they introduced me at first but then um this was a band

we kind of all like became obsessed with kind of together um so yeah that was

fun yeah Yeah, that's a lot of fun. Cool.

Well, shall we take a quick break and come back and talk about track number 32?

That sounds great. All right. Well, we'll do that. We'll see you on the other side.

Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.

Track 1

[9:33] And now on with a countdown. 32.

Track 3

[13:53] Song number 32 on the countdown comes from Pavement's masterpiece,

well, one of them, Wowie Zowie.

Track 3

[14:37] At track 32 we have the song grave architecture come on in yeah sorry let's

try to stick that in yeah oh damn i stepped on it that's okay i I should have prepared you.

What are your initial thoughts of grave architecture? This was a funny one that,

that when you said it to me, I have a long, like, I think I said before,

I think the album that I really kind of really felt like really grabbed me was, was wow.

And yeah, this song is like the come on in like right away. Like, Oh yeah.

Humanity. So it always sticks with me that way. Yeah. Yeah.

It's always very cool when you can bring something cool into school right yeah,

well and actually um i i didn't mention this before but i'm actually a fourth

grade teacher ah and periodically i'll have pavement playing when the kids come

in but um like what's this i'm like don't worry about it's pavement,

um but i guess back to the song uh so it's

it's kind of that um it's kind of like i

always felt the song was kind of jazzy kind of like the.

Track 3

[15:48] Uh five minus four equals unity from

crooked rain like it has a bit of that you know

you kind of like groove to it um and then almost from the beginning he's going

you know saying grave architecture and that whole like the jerky uh sort of

segmented way um mouth like uh sort of phrases things and songs especially when

he's He's live and he's playing around with it.

You know, that's always like, that's how I sing half the songs I sing along to.

So I just, that one always, that always touched me. But yeah,

I don't know. I just love the song. It just grooves.

Like, yeah, you can just kind of sway back and forth and just kind of take it in.

Track 3

[16:34] Yeah. And then I thought a lot about what it meant.

And a lot of these songs, I kind of put my own. I'm sure this is not what they think.

But I always think of when I hear this grave architecture and walk the marble

malls, I think of the monuments and the buildings in our world that were built

by the, say, super rich in their name and are sort of left there as their monument.

And the rest of us sad folk don't have anything like that.

And so, they sort of left their imprint everywhere.

And so, you walk through it and it's imposing everywhere.

And they're almost like graves, literally, only to maybe their money, to their wealth.

Um you know he even says like

stiff the crypt so i'm like already it's like still graves

are in my head um yeah there's

just a bunch of like little things like that in the song um

that i really appreciate yeah little breadcrumbs right

yeah yeah yeah yeah because nothing is ever straightforward with that sound

oh no no and that's i think it's probably why we all love them i think so too

yeah you have to do a little bit of digging a little bit of investigative work

um not the first song I don't think it's a song that he mentions architecture either,

which is interesting.

Yeah. Oh, what was that? Oh, it was that, I'm terrible at song names.

You're just going to have to name it. Oh, shit.

Track 3

[18:02] I thought I'd written it down, but I guess I hadn't. I'm so bad at song names.

With an itch they cannot scratch.

Track 3

[18:11] God, what song is it? Is it The Hex? Oh, yeah.

When I was trying to research a little bit, I read that same line.

I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right.

But yeah, he mentions art throughout, art and architecture and all these sorts of things.

He's married to an artist.

It's a huge piece of him or part of him.

And then I think the history, I believe he was like, was he like a history major

at Virginia or something?

I'm not sure. Okay. Uncool and underqualified to the bitter end.

No, that's all right. Half the stuff, like I said, talk out my ass still.

Track 3

[18:52] But, you know, but then there's like later there's lines, you know,

you know, it's like, you know, found on shady ground.

And I sort of, that's reminding me of hollowed ground and sort of like as opposed.

Like there's a little bit of critique in here.

You know, I always hear her too. There's like, um, and needs the talent to breathe.

Um, I always said that I still sing it this way as breed needs the talent to

breathe, which I'm sure it was breathed, but I also know that sometimes Malcolm

S plays with words that way.

And so I always just think like, oh yeah. Okay. So you could breed,

there's more of you pass on your wealth when you're not building,

you know, or whatever it is. Oh, I like that. Yeah.

So yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was fun to, to be able to kind of revisit a song

that actually does, I have thought about and have loved for a long time.

Yeah, I always get worried when I do these that, you know, somebody's going

to get matched up with a song that they just don't vibe or resonate with.

But that's so cool to think that you took this one, you know,

and talked about it in class.

Yeah, I won't tell you how old I am, But yeah, when I was in college, sure.

Track 3

[20:11] And yeah, I remember my girlfriend at the time was just like,

I don't know how he knows all this stuff.

And I'm talking about Sonic Youth and Velvet Underground and trying to like make it all connect.

And somehow I thought Pavement was important. I mean, they are in retrospect,

they're super important in all this.

But at the time, they probably, I mean, they could have not been important. They just were. Yeah.

Well, they're important to a lot of us. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So where do you think this song lands on the countdown? It comes in at 32.

Is it properly rated? Is it overrated? Is it underrated? What do you think?

I mean, you know, I think somewhere in the middle makes sense.

Because I think once you start naming other songs, you're like,

oh, yeah, I like that one better.

So I think somewhere here in the middle makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah, it seems about right to me. Honestly, I have to confess, I did not submit a list.

Well, that's fine. I know, I got really busy, and so I felt bad.

And also, if I rated them, if I ranked them, I would just change my mind the next day.

Ah, I think so, too. So I think 32 just sounds great.

Track 3

[21:28] Yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to mention about grave architecture?

Texture any memorable live performances of it or i mean you know i.

Track 3

[21:40] Honestly, I go back to that first show. I remember these kids made the band t-shirts.

They ironed on pavement.

They were wearing homemade t-shirts.

Every song in that set was just perfectly placed. Grave Architecture had its spot.

I remember just even fans were out. We were all shouting out what we thought would come next.

It just all made sense. And Grave Architecture is just like,

I just think it fits perfectly on Wowie Zowie.

If there's one thing, like, I know it's all over the place, but there's a few

tracks that really tie it together.

And I think Grave Architecture is like, and I think it's right in the middle

of the album, if I remember correctly.

And so it's just, it just fits and it just works.

Um i think even when i look at the the image

of the album cover like just something screams to me like grave like this whole

album is grave architecture i think in a lot of ways even if it's not maybe

my favorite or the best song in the album it just it just is the album it is

wowie zowie interesting yeah i notice over your over your left shoulder you've got that,

wowie zowie oh and you've got the bright in the corners and crooked rain as

well yeah and i've got to slant it over there i only have like four the steve

king the guy who did the painting yeah um he did like like recently well he

started selling things on ebay and so i was able to.

Track 3

[23:08] Uh score like a set of four of these um like

they're great and it was like super reasonable he even

like people kept outbidding me he's like don't worry i'll make

it work and so he made sure that i got these

four paintings um and then they even put out

an art book of all of his stuff recently yeah it's just low

I don't know if you've seen it you probably have like it's just loaded with

like a bunch of um pavement artwork um a

bunch of those um have you ever seen the they made I

think it was for Brighton the Corners they made like these signs that

stand up freestanding signs and it's painted in

his style like he's done it um and they were like yeah they were sent out to

different record stores around the country as part of the promotion for Brighton

the Corners and um there's a few people that still have them they're like every

once in a while you see one online but yeah his paintings are great they're like super affordable,

yeah so yeah,

wowie zowie got me into his art so yeah yeah I love it I think it's great.

Track 3

[24:11] Well, speaking of great, it's been great talking to you today and I really appreciate

your time and I really appreciate you doing this.

It's a lot of heavy lifting on your end. For me, it's like a vacation,

like I'm used to doing these alone.

So to have somebody to bounce things off of, somebody as passionate as yourself,

that's a lot of fun. So thank you very much.

Oh, yeah. Thanks, J.D. Thanks for having me. Do you have anything that you need or want to plug?

Man i wish i did i used to blog a lot like i used to have a blog where i actually

i was breaking down each pavement song and i only got like 30 or 40 you're like way better,

at this than i am and then i started doing a blog that was called um uh well

it was the original title was building coalitions through beer and pavement

now it's just called beer and pavement um but i don't i haven't updated it in

forever but some people might know it some people might I might not care,

but that's it. I don't have time.

I have kids and I teach, so I don't have time. Yeah. You're busy as hell.

Track 3

[25:16] Well, once again, thanks so much. And, uh, we'll talk to you on the flip side.

All right. Thank you. And wash your goddamn hands.

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