100 Devon Howard-Understanding the Connection Between Form and Style in Surfing

Podcast - SURF MASTERY

In this milestone 100th episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, host Michael Frampton welcomes back the stylish surfer Devon Howard. Broadcasting from the Channel Islands office in Santa Barbara, Devon shares his insights on the elusive concept of style in surfing. The episode delves into the historical evolution of style, its significance in competitive surfing, and the subjective nature of defining style.
Devon emphasizes the importance of making difficult maneuvers look effortless and how personal demeanor often mirrors one's surfing style. He contrasts the stylistic approaches of surfers like Joel Parkinson and Kelly Slater with the more explosive style of Adriano de Souza. Listeners are encouraged to focus on form over presentation, maintain a relaxed and efficient approach, and view style as a natural extension of personal expression.

Episode Highlights:

• Introduction to Devon Howard: Recap of Devon's previous appearances on episodes 41, 77, and 86.

• Importance of Style in Surfing: Exploring the subjective nature of style and its impact on surfing performance and aesthetics.

• Origins of the Word 'Style': Michael provides a brief etymology of the word 'style' and its various meanings throughout history.

• Cultural Influence on Style: How different surf cultures and eras emphasize or de-emphasize style.

• Effortless Style: The concept of making difficult maneuvers look easy and the importance of being relaxed and calm.

• Influence of Personality on Style: How a surfer’s personality often reflects in their surfing style.

• Contrived vs. Natural Style: The difference between genuinely stylish surfing and trying too hard to look stylish.

• Technical Aspects of Style: Tips for improving style through form, patience, and not rushing maneuvers.

• Style in Tube Riding: The inherent style in good tube riding and how it relates to other surfing maneuvers.

• Practical Advice: Devon’s practical advice for surfers aiming to improve their style.

Key Quotes:

• Devon Howard: “Style is oftentimes making the difficult look easy.”

• Michael Frampton: “You can be quick without being rushed.”

• Devon Howard: “Don’t try to contrive it. Don’t rush your surfing.”

Follow Devon Howard

• Check out Devon’s surfing and updates on his Instagram.
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• Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/in/devon-howard-a4b2a613/.

Connect with Surf Mastery:

• Surf Mastery Website: Download the free PDF with the top five tips from the Surf Mastery Podcast at surfmastery.com.

• Instagram: Surf Mastery
  

Full Show Transcript:

Devon Howard: When I. When I often think about style, there's always like there's two camps. There's the people that get it and and style is usually it's like you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And a lot of times the answer is, well, you know, when you see it, you know, something is gross or smut as opposed to art.

Michael Frampton: Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and this is episode 100 of the podcast. A little bit of a milestone. Special guest for this episode. And we've also revamped the website Surf Mastery. Com and on the front page of that website is a free PDF listing the top five tips from the Surf Mastery Podcast. So go to Surf mastery.com and you can download that PDF for free. Today's guest. Well, I was looking back through all the stats on this podcast and the the most downloaded episodes have been from Devon Howard, so it made sense to have him on episode 100. And so you can go back and listen to. He first appeared on the show, uh, episode 41, discussing longboarding and nose riding. Then it was back in, uh, episode 77 zero. Uh, we talked about Mid-lengths in episode 86. It was Twin fins. And today in episode 100, Devin Howard joins us again to discuss style. Style is something that is in it's fundamental. It's paramount for every type of surfing that is done, from traditional longboarding all the way through to high performance, short boarding. All of the greats, all of the most memorable surfers have good style. They are stylish. From Joel Tudor in traditional longboarding through to Joel Parkinson as a high performance, competitive short boarder Tom Curren. Uh, mid lengths and twin fins. You got Torin Martin.

Michael Frampton: And of course, Devon Howard himself is a very stylish surfer. He's very smooth, very graceful on a longboard, on a mid length and a twin fin. We've even seen some footage of him riding, uh, three thrusters out there on his Instagram. And his style, his technique, his gracefulness runs throughout his surfing. So a perfect topic for us to discuss in episode 100, so I would love to hear your feedback on the show in general. Last 100 episodes and of course this episode. Go ahead, send us an email Mike at Surf mastery.com. Or you can DM me on Instagram or leave a comment under the, uh, the visual for this episode. And of course, support Devin Howard, give his Instagram a follow. And of course, he's, uh, joining us from the Channel Islands office in Santa Barbara. Uh, Devin is currently working with Channel Islands, are working on some new surfboard models as well as he's you know, some of the most popular boards recently have been he's been a part of. So without further adieu, I shall fade in my conversation with Devon Howard. I actually see a lot of agreement between Brett and Chaz on this subject. Yeah, yeah, because there are there are thing right that you go to a Grateful Dead concert and you experience the show and the vibe, you don't really listen to them on Spotify.

Devon Howard: Yeah. It's it's something to be enjoyed live.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. There's a certain style and vibe to them I think that come across differently in person than it does. And also the audience they sort of draw in. Yeah. Rather to the music on Spotify right there.

Devon Howard: There are two bands that I think are better live as well, which I think Radiohead is better live. I like Radiohead, I think a lot of their albums are great. I've been to a few of their shows that I think, no, this is 10 or 15 years ago. I don't know if that's still the case, but at the time when they were really peaking, they were insane live. And then I also saw James Brown live. Oh, wow. 25 years ago. And that was incredible. Mhm. I mean what a showman.

Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah I can imagine I mean there's the Radiohead live from the basement. Um unbelievable. Like gives you I can't remember what album it's they play in full from their studio basement studio and just makes you appreciate them on a whole nother level. Yeah. Just just by watching that on YouTube, not even being there. Well, yeah. Um, I remember seeing a gentleman called AMP Fiddler, another one of the best live acts I ever saw. Um, gave me a new appreciation of his music. He's sort of new, new age funk slash reggae. Um. Interesting music. Yeah. Catch a fire. Catch a fire. They're doing a tour through California at the moment. There are another unbelievable band live. Their live performance and sound is bigger than their their studio albums. I think they actually New Zealand band. You get a chance to see them. They often play in Santa Barbara. I forget the venue names, like a 500 capacity venue in Santa Barbara. They always play there.

Devon Howard: Is that the ball? I'm not sure.

Michael Frampton: Can't remember.

Devon Howard: Anyway, a lot of venues there, but yeah.

Michael Frampton: Style. Let's talk about style. Do you? Yeah. What would what do you know the origin of the word.

Devon Howard: Um, I don't, but I'd imagine. Uh. Well, I hope you did some research on it. Is it, um, the Latin word is it is it is it Greek? Is it? Where does it come from?

Michael Frampton: Let me sort of summarize from etymology online from the early 14th century started out as a writing instrument, pen or stylus, uh, a piece of a piece of written discourse or narrative, uh, characteristic. Characteristic, uh, rhetorical mode of an author, a manner or mode of expression. Uh, a way of life behavior. Uh, then the word sort of transformed, uh, the evolution of the word uh, from writing tool went into writing into manner of writing, into mode of expression, uh, in writing of a particular writer, writer or author. Um, and then it was in the 1500s. It was paired with the word substance, um, which basically meant back then, divine part of essence, sorry, divine part or essence, uh, and that, sort of, that sort of gave the word, uh, a deeper meaning, including finer parents or dashing character. Um, then it was the word then went into an artist's particular mode or form of skilled presentation that was later extended into athletics. Um, then by the 1800s it was distinctive or characteristic mode of dress. Obviously it was more in regards to fashion. Um, and so there's a, there's a little bit of a history of the word. So I think there's a lot of lot of depth to that. And it's certainly, um, it's very, uh, apt for, for surfing. A lot of those meanings, I think. Yes. Had tell me what you think about style and how important it is.

Devon Howard: Well, style is um, from my personal experience growing up, it was a, it was a measure of good surfing and, um, it was a marker of, like, one's own presentation of their expression of surfing. Uh, I don't want to cheapen it by, I guess, using the word brand, like your brand of surfing, but, um, everyone has their own form of expression, and style is. Oftentimes I see style as making the difficult look easy and my own belief in, you know, just absorbing what was around me when I was a kid. You know, we're humans. We we sort of mimic and and imitate what's around us. I haven't innovated anything really at all. I've just looked what's around. And you take bits and pieces of first. You take it from your parents, of course. And then as you get out in the world, it's like what's going on around you. And in San Diego, where I grew up. And I think this was the same in many other served cities in not only the US but the world. Um, in the 80s, the older surfers, 10 to 20 years or year older than you, where style focused as opposed to this idea of, um, ripping or tearing something apart and in doing it with reckless abandon. Um, that was something that started getting more popular as I was a kid. So I was sort of born into this era where one thing was kind of falling out of favor. Um, and this other form of surfing was gaining popularity. And, uh, sorry, that was kind of a muddled answer, but it's it's I think it's one of the most difficult subjects in surfing to discuss or to describe because it's so subjective. Um, and it comes with the word style, comes with a lot of different ideas to people ranging from beauty to something that's very contrived and nonfunctional.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I mean, has the word style itself has, as you sort of addressed, has a lot of meanings, like everyone has their own unique style, you could say, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are stylish. So when we think of when we think of stylish surfers, we do. We think of beauty and grace and flow. Um, so and I think it is related to, to that and it's related to efficiency, right? I mean, Rob Machado comes to mind. I think he's sort of an incredibly stylish surfer, but he's also fits in that modern category. Category of radical. Yeah, he encompasses both. And I mean, world champ Joel Parkinson obviously fit the criteria of of competition surfing but remained incredibly smooth and stylish.

Devon Howard: Yeah. Well, um, you know, I think depending who where you grew up and what culture you came from or grew up in, um, style could also just not be that important. You know, if, if surfing to to you or just to any individual is about, um, really pushing as hard as they can with maneuvers and being as radical as they can and, you know, tearing apart a wave of, you know, like you think of the Brazilian storm. Guys there for years have been, you know, they're well deserved. They're incredible athletes. They are highly athletic. And it is explosive maneuvers. And they're acrobats in many ways. Um, for some reason, as that game has gained popularity, some aspects of the presentation and sort of fall into the wayside where, uh, in gymnastics, um, presentation and form is still really part of the whole thing was never really let like if you do a floor routine in gymnastics, um, or let's say dance or anything like that, they're doing really kind of athletic, powerful moves, but they also keep the form and I don't know quite the exact reason, but, uh, that sort of started falling out of favor in surfing, mostly because what drives our conversations oftentimes revolves around competition. Surfing, um, like competition surfing drives a lot of the media narratives, um, let's say, who are like, where do we get our information from? It's driven by the cell to, to whatever extent that is, stab in their audience.

Devon Howard: Um, surf line kind of, sort of. But they're more focused on cameras and whatnot. And then the most of the magazines have gone out of business. But only ten years ago, a lot of the stories were driven by the the personalities and the folks that competed. And there was a mixed bag in there of surfers that had great style, like Joel Parkinson. He mentioned, um, I would say Kelly Slater has a good style. It's a different style. It's his own. Um, and then on the opposite end of that would be like an Adriano de Souza or somebody like that, where he's clearly just incredibly talented, but sort of putting his surfing together and like one seamless, fluid motion was not a focus of his. And so, um, it's been interesting to watch and the broader conversations of the mainstream, how that sort of played out, uh, in back to where I grew up. I grew up on the fringe of all that. Anyways, so I was riding longboards in the 80s and 90s that was as fringe as it got. And in that world, all through that time, um, style was still important, even when folks were trying to emulate Shortboard maneuvers on longboards, there was still an emphasis of style. Um, sorry. I'll shut up. I don't know where I'm going with that, but yeah.

Michael Frampton: So I'm just wondering when you look at, I mean, I think that you mentioned the Brazilian storm. I think Gabriel Medina is quite stylish. Not all the time, but probably actually more so when you see him. Freeserve he sort of. He just seems to be more relaxed when he's not surfing in a competition. And I think that's maybe what separates the I think that's a big part of being stylish is you're very calm and you're relaxed. That doesn't necessarily mean you're going slower or that you're even putting less effort in. It's just maybe you referenced gymnastics. I think a gymnast could do the same routine. They get the same height, the same amount of power. But if one of their runs, they were purposely trying to keep the presentation of themselves relaxed and calm, it would be more visually appealing. Sort of making it look, look easy.

Devon Howard: Yeah. That's the that's the thing. Making it difficult look easy. Mhm. In the 60s or 50s or whatever the boards weren't very maneuverable. So um clearly the market did. Surfing was just people who were stylish and could kind of keep it together. Um, hang on one second. Um, are you hearing a beeping on your end? What? I'm getting messages. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Is that your phone?

Devon Howard: Yeah. I don't know how to turn off the iMessage on my, uh. Oh, it's on the computer. I'm trying to see how to undo this. Is this on.

Michael Frampton: Your phone, a phone or your laptop or your iPad?

Devon Howard: It's on my laptop. Oh, sorry. You're going to have to edit this out. That's all right. I'm just getting, like, every one of them. Don't fuck me up. The client. Claudia, um, do you have any idea how to get rid of iMessage off here? Preferences services?

Michael Frampton: That's a good question. I don't I don't have my, um, I don't have my laptop linked to my phone, so. Yeah.

Devon Howard: Don't do it. References. Let's say.

Michael Frampton: I'd say I'd be under notifications, notifications and focus is like a bell symbol.

Devon Howard: On, uh, on the computer itself or on the phone.

Michael Frampton: I'm looking on my laptop.

Devon Howard: Where did you find the notifications in System Preferences?

Michael Frampton: Okay.

Devon Howard: System preferences notifications. There they are. Look at that.

Michael Frampton: And top top right there's a there's a button. Allow notifications so you can turn that off or on I'd say that's it.

Devon Howard: Only five messages? There we go. Okay, I want to turn that off. Okay. Apologies for that. Okay. So, um. All right.

Michael Frampton: So where were we? Let me throw out some some adjectives that I wrote down after thinking about style a little bit. Um, efficient. Graceful. Functional. Calm. Focused. Relaxed. Grounded. Present. Fearless. Or maybe, better put, courageous. Is there anything you would add to that or you think shouldn't be there?

Devon Howard: Uh, no. I just think it's more about a calm and a gracefulness. It's mostly what it is. And it's just a it's just the form of your personal expression. I think a lot of the style, you'll see style of folks from a distance, and a lot of ways it matches up to their personality. Right? You'll see someone who's quite busy, a lot of a lot of kinetic, sort of frantic, uh, motions and, and not always the case, but sometimes, like, okay, this person's a little overcaffeinated in general, you know, they're really mellow, kind of quiet. People have this very quiet. Always meet a really quiet surfer with their style, and they're really loud and and obnoxious. There's exceptions to the rule, but if you think about it quickly, there's not often the case. And so, um, I think a lot of those adjectives actually work pretty well. Um, I don't what did you say? Courageous.

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Devon Howard: I don't really know that that applies to it. Really. I don't think it's really much to do with courage other than. Well, I was.

Michael Frampton: Thinking that I was just wondering if that was a better word than fearless.

Devon Howard: Mhm.

Michael Frampton: Because if you, if you look, if you look scared, that's not very stylish is it.

Devon Howard: No, no it's very your tent style. And yeah I've said to people I don't do surf coaching, but if I've ever seen someone in the water and looks like they're struggling, if it's appropriate or sort of convenient, like they're just sort of right there. I'll say, do you do you mind if I offer some advice? It's usually well received. Um, a lot of times I've said, I think you just relax a little bit. Your body's too tense. Looks bad, but it also screws up the your ability to surf because now it's affected the form. Like you're sort of hunched over and bracing for, like, some sort of impact where you need to be more relaxed. The arms need to be relaxed, the shoulders should be relaxed. Surely you should be able to sort of slink back and into your knees and your hips and let those kind of bend and sort of sit into the board nicely. And so I think, um, what I, what I often think about style, there's always like there's two camps as the people that get it and, and style is usually it's like you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And the a lot of times the answer is, well, you know, when you see it, you know, something is gross or smut as opposed to art.

Devon Howard: Like you go into an art gallery and there's naked, you know, images of a naked person. How is that not pornography? And it's like, well, you know, when you see it and it's like, style. You sort of know it when you see it, and then you have, um, the other end of that where people will feel style is just posing and looking cool, like you're putting your hands in the air to, to look like Alex Knost or Mickey Dora or Rob Machado, whoever the insert the surfer, you're trying to mimic their hand placement, and sometimes the hand placement provides no real function or value to the to the ride. Other than it. It might feel good, I guess, but it's not making you surf better. Um, where I like to, I often will. I will argue or believe that yes, there are people that pose and that does exist, I exist, grant you that. But good style also brings about, um, really good form. Or I would look at it a different way. Really good form pulls along the style into it. So if you have good form and whether that's in a barrel or a cutback, if your body is doing sort of the right things to make a beautiful, seamless ride easier.

Devon Howard: Um, along with that usually comes a pretty good style if you don't have a good style. A lot of times the form is really working against your surfing. So for example, you got to do a cutback in your arm is up and back, um, front side. And let's say I'm turning this way. Front side cut back. Well, if my back arm is in the air waving behind me, I'm really struggling to get my body around and I'm actually having to work really hard for could potentially even injure yourself. Um, so that really hinders your surfing. But if I brought the arm in and drop it down and then have the arm kind of point toward where I want to go, the rest of my body goes. And it's actually quite easy to do the turn and consequently it looks much better. Doesn't look so awkward. Yeah. And and this could be said of your front arm. I've seen folks do cut backs with. I don't know why this happens, but sometimes their front arm is is sort of flailing and going behind them over here. Or they're extending and reaching too far. Um, so when there's this nice balance of the front and the back hand on the front side, cut back looks cool. Hey, that's great. If someone took a photo. Yeah, you probably put on the wall.

Devon Howard: Looks pretty good. Looks like Michael Peterson or somebody or whatever. Joel Parkinson Ethan Ewing would be a really good contemporary example, I guess. And, um, but when it's all sort of like the form is there, it looks good, but now you're surfing better and the turn is faster and more complete. And also when you have nice form, you get the board in trim. What I mean by that is when when the boards in trim, it's sort of if you know anything about sailing, when everything's in alignment with the bow and the sail and the the boat is really hitting its top speed, there's nothing really hindering or dragging or fighting against um, that top trim speed. In surfing, you want to get to the top trim speed, because when you have speed, it's easier to complete maneuvers, it's less work. You go into the maneuvers with speed, you can do a lot better. It's like snowboarding. If anyone snowboarded you know that the first few days you're learning, the instructor will say, you just need to get going faster. You know what? We know that's scary. I don't want to go faster, but. Well, you're going so slow that that's why you're tumbling and you're catching an edge and you're getting stuck on the hill. Go faster. And then you see this light bulb moment with people like, my gosh, well, I should have just been going faster all along.

Devon Howard: It's the same with surfing. You'll see people struggling to get trim speed because their form is so terrible. They're not understanding that the board is not even in trend. The board then noses out or they're waving their arms. They're there. They're there shaking their body like this, and they're trying to wiggle and do stuff. And you're watching the board underneath. And the board is just like on a gimbal, just like not getting any trim. It's just stop and go, stop and go. So it's this utter fail where if the person just relaxed a little bit, relax their arms, don't try to flop the body around and just get the idea of even going straight, which is hard to do on a chalkboard. Clearly, if you're a beginner, you probably shouldn't even be on the floor. Um, it's just going to be a struggle. Yet a board that's medium like a mid length or something, or a long board where you can kind of stand there and glide and trim, and then you can kind of get that form where your body is body's relaxed. And um, so a lot of times good style, I believe just comes with the right form, if that makes sense.

Michael Frampton: I totally agree. Yeah. And that's what I think. That's what a surf coach, the surf coach's job is. And then it's once, once the person becomes at first the new, the better form will feel strange and maybe even, um, abnormal and uncomfortable. And it's only once that form becomes, uh, ingrained and you become comfortable with it, then it looks stylish. So it's it's maybe it's a precursor to style. Is is good form.

Devon Howard: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um, another thing that I've thought about a lot in the last several years about style is, um, it, it sort of belies the, the technique or the difficulty of the maneuver. I think if it looks like someone's trying really super hard to do like a, let's say, a crazy air or just like the craziest turn where like, they blow, they like, blow the tail out and spin the board around and like, oh, whoa, that was insane. That was so difficult. But if you see somebody do a top speed cut back and they don't lose or drift the fins and they just go and mock 20 and just bam, come up fluid and seamless. You might say, man, that was really smooth. That was really stylish. But you don't often think that that was also really difficult. It's interesting. And, um, I'm not trying to get people to cheer more for the stylist, I guess, but I think it's worth sort of acknowledging that Mikey February or Torin Martin and some of those things they're doing, um, we're drawn to them because they're beautiful, which is undeniable. Um, but it's also interesting to think that these are the highest level people at the very upper echelon, at the top peak of, uh, you know, ability of sphere fame. And it something to be learned there, like to not just only acknowledge and only see the style which is great.

Devon Howard: I love that I'll watch that stuff all day long, but to like hit the rewind button and look at what they're doing and how on rail that board is and how difficult it is to hold the line and not lose it. Because a lot of times, especially in performance, short boarding it, it's incredible what the surfers do. It's like it's a controlled failure of the surfing. So a lot of times when the fins release, it's a and I know this because I put a lot of thought into fins and foils and whatnot. A lot of the best high performance surfing maneuvers are, um, a controlled failure. Mhm. Um, they're pushing the limits of the board, and a lot of times the fins or the equipment can't really handle what these surfers are giving it. It's really interesting. Look at look at someone laying into a turn and their butt is sliding across the wave and the fins and the board and everything's sliding. Um, and then look at, like a mick Fanning or somebody who can hold that or Ethan Ewing and hold it all the way through. That's gnarly. That is just like peak form. But you're like, man, that was so smooth, but you're not ever saying that was so difficult to do. And I don't know what the point is I'm making.

Devon Howard: I guess it comes back to, uh, like the kind of surfing I like to do. It's could be easily scoffed at as pretty easy, like, hey, mid-length surfing, you're just going straight. It's not really difficult. Um, but I don't know, man. At the highest levels. Like, I think what Torin Martin does, I think what February does if he's on a mid lake or other, you know, there's other surfers out there doing it and I cut a watch. Wow, look at that. 5/6 of the rail of that board is buried. And that's what I do myself. And that's to me that's the most thrilling thing is to bury that rail. How how far can I push this thing before it fails me? That's just really, really thrilling. You're just on the edge of disaster. You know, when you go on one of those seven foot boards, go to the bottom, slink, you know, and and coil up into the board and push it as hard as you can. Alex Moss does this really good as well. I can go on forever. People do a great job of this and they push all that board through. And then if you don't watch it, you know, if you're not too far forward or too much weight on your front foot, you'll slingshot up the face as this fast, free feeling, like a flying feeling that's highly addictive.

Devon Howard: It's something that you just keep my people that are into those types of boards, they just keep chasing it. Um, and then down the line, do the same thing again. Now I'm going to bury a whole lot of rail on the cutback. How hard can I push it? And when I get down to the bottom of the wave, can I just keep going right back to the whitewater? Oh yes, I can. Damn. Just keep going. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Uh, and if you blow that, you're doing the split that's on the board. Now you've got a torn MCL. Um, but you're going full throttle. And that on that type of equipment. Um, the form is important so that you don't botch it because you really could get injured on some of these things. It probably someone who hears has got a laugh and think, this is a joke. Like, you're being really hyperbolic, bro. Come on. It's just a mid length and you're over water. Um, yeah. When you're pushing it really hard, it's it's it's thrilling and it's exciting and it is difficult to do and it's I think it's, um, it's really appealing to a lot of people. Um, and then they, you know, they go and try and do it and say, man, I, I wish I could surf like Rob Machado on this thing. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Well, all the surfers.

Devon Howard: Take ten years.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, if not longer. I think all the surfers you mention and the way you talk about their surfing is they're. Can they stay connected? You know, that as, as they're going through the, through the turns and in between turns, there's no there's no radical gain or loss of speed. Right. So that where they do the cutback isn't just a change of direction. It's in sync with that part of the wave. So they stay connected to the power source. So there's a certain it's a radical maneuver, but the speed doesn't waver too much, whereas some surfers might jump up to the top and bust the fins, and they might slow right down and then fall back down into the wave and go again. And it looks good in photos and maybe gets judged well in a competition. But it's not necessarily they're not as connected to the wave as other surfers.

Devon Howard: Yeah. And again, that's debatable. I'm sure there's other people who will feel opposite of that. And that's great. You know, surfing's subjective. Yeah. And you know, in in just to bring it back a little bit to competition if that's okay. I know lots of people don't care about surf competition, but it is where a lot of the best surfing's happening. It's where the like the high bar is a lot of times um, and in the 60s and 70s style was just sort of, um, it wasn't like there was a style box that was ticked. It was it was sort of like this nice little cozy little wrapping around the surfing that was just a given, you know, so it didn't really need to be discussed. And then in the 80s, when in probably really the late 70s when the twin fin was really coming on with Mr. pushing that and Sean Thompson and other people chasing him. Um, they were packing in as many maneuvers as they possibly could into a ride to take away more points. And and this isn't my own thought or original idea. I've read these things elsewhere, and I agree with his take, which is somewhere along the way. The beauty just sort of eroded because the focus is now like we're getting really fixated on number of maneuvers. And this like real technical aspect of the difficulty of the maneuvers.

Devon Howard: And surfing is already highly subjective. And you have this even more subjective thing, style. Um, and some of them may be, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe there was a style element at some point. I'm not aware of it, maybe there was. And um, so anyways, the 80s kind of moves on and there were clearly lots of stylish surfers. I mean, I grew up like many people my age, I'm 50, so I worshiped Tom Curren and I loved Tommy Carroll and a bunch of folks. There was lots of style, but there was also some people with some really hideous style, like Gary Elkerton and David and all these people. Nothing against them, man. Like, I think they're all incredible surfers, but there were some hideous styles and they crushed it in contests because they were just animals, like lacerating, tearing it up. And because the broader culture is being driven by whatever media is being consumed. And the media at the time was really sort of swiveling and craning and watching what's going on in competition, because that's like where the money's being plugged in. So those brands like, hey, we validate this thing we're doing, which is competition surfing. Um, and it just boiled down to what do you got to do to win this thing? And if making it look beautiful was not ever important, why would you spend time doing that? Tom Curran couldn't help himself.

Devon Howard: He was stylish no matter what. But, um, lots, lots of other surfers weren't, and they did very well. Um, and so as the decade or two ensues, um, just the sort of broad mainstream viewpoint was, that style just wasn't important. However, the people that were in the sort of the underground, your locals, people that sort of stuck to the fringe and even the in people that short boarded as well, obviously still kind of kept style alive and in it. And the reason style always stayed alive is because the idea that human beings are drawn and attracted to beauty is as old as time, I think. I mean, who knows? When that began, I had a really nice chat with David Scales on, um, Surf Splendor, and we spoke about this there. So if you want to hear more about this, go check that out. I think it was a nice conversation, but I'll sort of reiterate some of the points there was. I read an article by Scott Hewlett in The Surfer's Journal, and he wrote quite a bit about style, and he illustrated a point that I'd never considered. And he sort of talking about this Greek artists. It was like 500 BC. I'm like, where is this thing going? Why are we talking about bronze sculptures? Um, but he made a really brilliant point, which is, okay, why does style matter? Why do we keep talking about it? Um, it's because beauty endures.

Devon Howard: It is a common theme in human nature. Now, in recent times, I'd say beauty is being abandoned. If you look at modern architecture and just about any town, everything looks like shit. So I don't know what's going on there. We used to make beautiful buildings and now we're stopping doing it. Um, you we can't control that. But in surfing, we keep getting drawn back to this idea of beauty. Despite all those things that happen that we just talked about in the 80s and 90s competition, surfing and getting derailed. The broad culture still is always known instinctively that this is something that should, um, we should never stop cherishing. We should never stop celebrating. Um, and I think it's backed up by if you go to any Torin Martin video, go down to this thing below the screen that says views. A lot of Torin Martin videos have like a million plus views. Um, go over to Gabrielle Medina or anyone, and I'm not picking on these people. Just pick anybody. I'll bet you right now that Torin is is beating a lot of those surfers, 2 or 3 or 4 to 1 in terms of views. Now, you could argue that, well, there's more a lot more Gabriel Medina type surfers and there's not that many tour Martin's, I'll give you that.

Devon Howard: But I, I think it's really because we are drawn to beauty. And so back to that Surfers Journal article, which is he he said, imagine taking those Greek statues and putting a surfboard underneath them. And when I was done reading the article, I went and I googled 500 BC Greek statue and I forget the artist's name, its Greek name, and I was instantly like, huh, look at that. You just put a surfboard under these statues. And some of the form and posture was a little bit silly, but a lot of it was pretty spot on. And then you go right over to Jerry Lopez, or you go to Mikey February or somebody else, and you can see that, um, there's a similarity to this idea of beauty. And then you go take it steps further, take it to, uh, any type of traditional dance. Have you ever seen ugly, poor form at any dance scenario where there's, like, serious people, whether it's ballroom or it's swing or it's foxtrot or it's tango or it's salsa, it's just incredibly beautiful. And it's this expression. The music is coming in. You're viewing and watching and feeling the music. There's that input, and the output is what these people are feeling. And so that our output in surfing is, is that form and that expression. Um, bullfighters. Same thing.

Michael Frampton: Mhm.

Devon Howard: Now the bullfighters have a little more of a pose at the end, the bulls coming in and the bull goes through the cape and they kind of hold it and they sort of like it's almost like a taunting of the bull. Like you didn't kill me. And look how calm I am right here. And a lot of the surfers in the 50s and 60s, they really admired the bullfighters as a great shot of Joey Cobell in Peru in the 60s. Guys never bullfight, but bull fought before, and he's down there and there's pictures of him in the bull ring with a Hawaiian print shirt on and doing the whole full Ole, you know. And so this idea of style really, um, is always going to matter and always be important to us. Um, so long as we don't ever abandon this, um, attraction of ours to beauty, you know, we're attracted to beautiful people. Clearly, that's a given, right? Um, but we're really drawn to beautiful, um, things art, architecture, wonderful garden, uh, an unmolested landscape. And so it I don't think people really care to give too much thought about style.

Devon Howard: I think it's just sort of like I said, you know, when you see it, does it really need to be talked about? But I think in the context of a podcast like yours where people are trying to improve their surfing, um, having a real understanding that this isn't just for show style isn't just to look cool. It's not like putting on a cool outfit to look cool. Um, it's a real purpose driven thing. Certain articles of clothing look great, but they also have a purpose. Maybe it has SPF in it, maybe it's, um, built for a particular, um, activity to make it more comfortable. Um, for us, as I was saying in the very beginning, like the form, um, the style sort of follows the form. And if you, if you really think about your form and you're relaxed and you're sort of paying attention to the things that you talk about on your podcast or where people get their information, There's lots of different YouTube things, obviously. Um, you two could have nice style if you so desire.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, I 100% agree. Surfing is first and foremost an art form. Mhm. It's only within competition that it becomes a sport. And then yes, sometimes we don't necessarily we sacrifice a bit of style for progression perhaps as well as what's happening in windsurfing is a sport. I still think the best of the best, the best of the best can buy. Like John John, he's number one at the moment for a reason. Not just because he's progressive, but because he he would do a progressive turn with calm style like no one else. Yeah, yeah. So I still have faith. I think there'll be the odd slip up. You know, Toledo's frantic aerial maneuver that goes higher than everyone else. The judges kind of. They can't not score it, you know. So, you know, there'll be blips in the system, glitches in the matrix, per se, until until the judges, you know, really start to consider style and and make that a point which hopefully, maybe one day they will. I think it would make, uh, I would make surfing more watchable.

Devon Howard: Well, they have done so in longboard surfing. Yes. Longboard surfing has a much smaller audience, obviously. Um, but as I believe you and I talked about in the past, I think we did. I was at the WSL for a few years, and I worked on the longboard tour and built into the criteria is the word style also two other words flow and grace. Um, Style. Flow. Grace is in the criteria and it's hard, a little difficult to train the judges on it, you know? Um, it's highly subjective. It's something we could we could sit here for an hour, breaking down style, flow, grace. It will still feel like we barely scratched the surface. Um, because it's it is highly subjective. Just like art is just like music is just like food is just like, what kind of waves I like? Ah, it's just like that. It's just, um, really can be difficult to put your finger on it. But the way we did the training to help, um, these judges, if anyone cares to know this stuff is, um, have them really focus on somebody making something really difficult look easy, but also at the same time, dealt with sight of the positioning of the wave or the difficulty of the maneuver, because to the untrained eye, you could you could see someone doing a nose ride and maybe they're doing something really what you may think is beautiful on the nose.

Devon Howard: Maybe their arms are held a certain way. It just looks kind of like cool. But if you pay close attention, they're like ten feet in front of the pocket and you're like, that's not that hard to do. Mhm. So the so what helps is in the other part of the criteria is um, the degree of difficulty that is part of it. So you have to, you're looking at the style of flow and grace but you're applying it to are these surfers in the pocket. Is the surfer using their rail or are they lifting the board out of the water? Because to lift the longboard out of the water and turn it as far easier than engaging the rail in the water and pushing it through a turn. That's much more difficult. And so it has been applied in longboard surfing. Let's see if we can. If anyone cares, we could try to do a campaign to get the Shortboard tour to break more.

Michael Frampton: I'm with you. I'm with you. Ultimately, I do think it shines through and the cream always rises to the top. But it would be nice if it was literally in the criteria, and it was considered by each surfer to be a worthy consideration. Um, coming back to form, let me I'm going to share my screen with you. Let me. Hopefully this works. Oh, shit. Did that work? Can you see my screen?

Devon Howard: I think so. Let me move my notes here a little bit. Oops. Too many things around here. I'm terrible at computer stuff, but second. So where it is now? Okay, I can see it now.

Michael Frampton: So there's an example of a, you know, if that was placed on the nose of a longboard, it'd be quite cool.

Devon Howard: Yeah, it's pretty close.

Michael Frampton: But then also so here's you see on the left there is the way that a baby learns to stand now because the infant is so weak, there's only one way that they can learn to roll over and learn to stand up and hold themselves. Because their muscles are so weak, their bones have to be placed so accurately in order for them to be able to stand and move. And that's how we learn because of our our weakness and our slow progression into strength, we learn the most efficient way possible. Now it's the athletes that maintain that neurological efficiency that end up with the best form naturally, i.e. the way Kelly Slater's standing there in those barrels. Not only is he standing in a very similar way to the infant there, he's also very calm and relaxed in that position.

Devon Howard: Yeah, I would definitely not be that calm in that way. Those waves.

Michael Frampton: Exactly. So it does come back to to form. And it's also when when an athlete is standing with their joints in DNS, we call it joint centration and that the bones are stacked on top on top of each other in a very efficient way. It just looks right. Not only does it look right the way the forces are spread throughout the body, it doesn't feel hard. Anyone who's ever tried, if anyone, has ever tried to skate a vert ramp, for example, half pipe, it feels like, oh man, my legs aren't strong enough. How do people and then you watch a 12 year old just go up and down. They're not doing it because their legs are stronger than yours. They're not even doing it because they're stronger relative to their body weight. They're doing it because they're stacking themselves. Their bones and their joints are centered properly, and the force is being transferred throughout their entire body through the center of the bone and into the skateboard. Whereas someone who doesn't know what they're doing, they're trying to muscle their way through it. They only does it feel terrible. It looks terrible. Yeah. So I agree with that. Yeah. So it does come back to efficiency. And you said no good style is that you know it when you see it. My question to you is, do you know it when you feel it?

Devon Howard: Yes. Um, I believe so. Um, I know, um, I've even had moments where I just didn't feel like I was in the right form. It just didn't the the turn didn't feel good or the particular move movement. Maybe it's a nose ride or something. Didn't feel great. And if you get a chance to be lucky enough to come across a video or a photo of that moment, you're like, mm, yeah, that that is actually backs it up. It looks a bit awkward. It looks a bit off. So and you definitely can feel good style because you like it, like it's all tethered to, to itself. Like it's it feels good. It looks good. Um, and it, it's sort of like carries on the ride. It's it's like when you get off the very beginning of the ride and the first bottom turn is successful and your feet are in the right place. It really sets up the rest of the ride. Um, if you botch that, let's say you screw it up getting to your feet or off the bottom. Then you get you. You screw up the pace of the wave. So, um, yeah, I've had times where my feet were too far forward or back or whatever. Um, or I hit a chop and my arms sort of waved a little bit, and then I got out of that rhythm. Um, and that didn't that definitely didn't feel good. And it certainly didn't, because it looked like I was rolling up the windows as opposed to my arms being sort of down and going the direction that I want to be headed.

Devon Howard: A lot of times the front end, the back end oftentimes are going the direction you want to go. I find that to be very helpful, and that feels good to me because I feel really centered. I or you'd say stacked. You know, I never thought of it that way, but, um, so yeah, I would agree. I would say you definitely. You definitely feel it. Um, my own belief is I don't I don't do anything in the style that I feel is what's called contrived, where I'm trying to present before of some kind that it has a certain look. The form I have is, is really based off of function, and that's because I watched the generation two ahead of me at a waves like wind and sea and Cardiff Reef, and I watched the elders and what the I really watched closely what they were doing. How they were sinking down into the board. And I noticed that their hands, their fingers were never apart. Their, um, hand gestures were sort of always in the direction of where their board and body was heading. It was like this stacking or centering. He kind of like hunkered down, but they never looked stiff or scared or afraid of anything or timid. It was very, a very confident, almost like a martial artist, like a kung fu person or something that has confidence in the form of that particular move.

Devon Howard: Um, the really good surfers, the real standout surfers. I, I identified that pretty young and I said, I want I need to learn how to do that. Um, so it was never a contrived thing, like, I need to look good and look cool. I just knew that that was good surfing. And as a consequence of learning going through that, it also felt really good. It was like a good golf swing. I don't golf at all, but I have friends who do and I can understand like how much work they put into that golf swing. And when they do that, clearly it looks good from a distance because they hit the ball and it goes right where they want it to go. So that's pretty awesome. But they'll tell you it feels good. It's like uh, or baseball. If you've ever played baseball, you know the feeling of a homerun. There's a sound of the bat and the feel through the bat into your hands, and you feel it. The follow through of the swing. You're like, that ball is out of here. It's pretty cool. Um, Mhm. A reward to not that it's work but there's sort of like this payoff and a reward to the dedication that it took to learn that, that art form. Mhm.

Michael Frampton: But it always comes back to the feeling. Yeah.

Devon Howard: It really does. Yeah I didn't I haven't put too much thought into the feeling piece of it. But um yeah. You know it's disgusting and really dumb and shallow. But I've, I've had moments where the way where the ride did it feel good, and I didn't even finish the wave. I was so not into the feeling. I just kicked out. I was like, I've botched this thing so bad that someone else just needs to finish it. I'm just. I just kick out and I go back up to the top and kind of regroup and go, what? What just went wrong there? And then, you know, like surfing. Everyone surfs for different reasons too. Like for some people, surfing is a couple times a month. It's an escape for them. They don't care if they surf. Well, that's not what they're there for.

Michael Frampton: Like they're probably not listening to this, though.

Devon Howard: Probably not. Um, and I like I've had people say, man, you look so serious when you're surfing. I'm like, I'm pretty serious about it. Like it? I'm to me, it's so strange. It's serious fun and and it's as I've gotten older, I haven't lost interest in it. It's like a it's like a hunt to me. It's really weird. No, and I don't I don't know if it's just some human thing of like the game and the chess moves and the everything involved with observing patterns. I've observed patterns for decades, and now I see the patterns, and the benefit for me is I know which wave to pick. I know where to beat. And by knowing that I've set up the ride and therefore I've sort of like predetermined this feeling that I'm after, which is, as I said, it's highly addicting. Surfing like you, you never satiated. Why is that? You always want another one. You always want more. Um. And but all through this process, the hunt, the enjoying, understanding the patterns, the chasing, the moment, the feeling. Um, there's a there's a tremendous sense of there's like a reward when all the elements have come together and you apply everything you've learned. It's a really cool feeling. I think you could say that about a lot of things in life, whatever your or your craft is.

Devon Howard: And for me, surfing isn't just like some waste of time thing, like that's part of it. That's a bonus to me. Like, hey, I'm not doing chores or I'm not at work. That's fantastic. I will take that. But it's also like a craft. It's like a, it's a, it's it's a way I express myself. Some people do that through building things out of wood in their garage or a number of other things. Um, so the style piece of it, it's just sort of come along with it. It never was like, I'm going to really think about this super duper hard. Um, and you just, you learn through time that they the style and the and the form, they sort of, like, are tied together, you know, and you kind of look at it this way, and then you go back and look at it the other way, and they really come together nicely. And if you fight them, you're surfing. You're not going to surf as well. If you're not surfing as well, you're not going to feel it as right. You won't feel that thing we just talked about. Um, and then consequently, not that not that that many people care, but you're surfing is going to be kind of ugly.

Michael Frampton: Thing is.

Michael Frampton: It'll.

Michael Frampton: Because when you are, when you're connected and you're efficient, it feels better. Simple as that. It feels better if you if you close your eyes and just imagine, like an image or a video section of someone who epitomizes style, are they? What are they feeling in the moment? Are they worried about what they look like? No, no. Are they are they are they scared? No. Are they putting in a ton of effort?

Devon Howard: I would say no.

Michael Frampton: It's in the.

Devon Howard: Moment. Yeah. There's probably a small number of people who. It's contrived, like you could go to Byron Bay. Sorry. Sorry. Byron Bay. They pick on you right now. You could go to Malibu. Um, pick your spot. Ah, maybe Montego Bay. I don't know, uh, way inside there. There's going to be places where there are folks that, for whatever reason, this. Well, like, who cares? There's no, like, laws or rules. Like, I'm not mad about this. It's just they're just observations. That's it. They're really controlled. It's just so contrived. They're sort of putting the form or I'm sorry, let me back up. They're putting the presentation ahead of the form. You know, they're worried about all the bells and whistles and the dressing, but, like, at the core of all the ingredients going into making this beautiful thing, they've got it all wrong, you know? And so, um, you.

Michael Frampton: Can always smell that though, I think.

Devon Howard: And it's a missed opportunity for them. Uh, does it change my life or your life or anybody listening? You do. You, man. Like, I'm very libertarian in that way. I don't really care. But, um, we're on a podcast called Surf Mastery, so we're we're we're nerding out. And if you're here to get better, don't get caught up in the presentation. Get caught up in the form. The presentation is going to come along. And yeah, it's just like this beautiful byproduct. You don't have to really. You shouldn't have to try to have good style. You should you should try to be good at surfing. And then once you have that confidence, you know, if you see a photo or catch a surf line, rewind. If you can see that far and you happen to notice that your your hands are bent at the wrist and going in instead of out, or you happen to notice that your fingers are wide apart, you could pull them in and it looks better, but it also centers and stacks you. You start feeling more stacked over your board, and once you start doing that, it starts improving. Your style just starts improving. And, um, it's interesting that tube riding, this is what we talked about with David the other day, I think. Or maybe we didn't, I can't remember, but he someone I was talking to you about. It's interesting that almost all good tube writing has good style. Most of it you You rarely see someone with really hideous style getting as sick barrel. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: So yeah, because the, the, the the wave will hit them in the butt with their post dance. They just don't they don't fit in their ugly.

Devon Howard: Yeah I think it's true. He's a lesson there that can be applied to other maneuvers like but but it's not always true. That good tube style now equates to this beautiful style of the face. You'll see what doesn't fall apart. Um. Why is that? I don't know exactly. Maybe the. I think one thing that could help with style, um, from a technique standpoint, is, um, don't rush your surfing. I've noticed, like, folks that, remember we were talking earlier about breaking trim, um, and seeing people that are trying to wiggle. They're sort of swaying. A lot of times it's the upper body that's swaying when that's not really helping them in any way. It's not benefiting the the ride. It's causing the board to lift out of the water and side to side motion, typically. And now you're breaking the trip. Now in a short board. A short board needs to be side to side, but it's also got to be pushed so that it's it's building momentum in a forward fashion. The people that are not very good are kind of not going anywhere, because they don't understand that. They're just sort of wiggling their arms and breaking the trim.

Devon Howard: Um, and I think if you just. Yeah, just like think about being a little bit more quiet, um, and, and being a little bit more quiet means you're not in a big hurry like you don't if you're not at a level where you need to try to get eight maneuvers in the wave, don't do it. Take take your time and get the two really nice maneuvers and those will feel really good. Be patient off the bottom when you're. Let's start from the beginning. You go and you paddle in. You go to do a bottom turn. Just be there in that moment with that bottom turn. Don't be thinking about the four moves you want to do down the line, because now it becomes this rut here. You're hurrying up the surfing, and now you're kind of like screwing up the pace of the ride. You're screwing up the pace of the wave. And when you do that, now you're out of sync. When you're out of sync, it doesn't feel or look good. So I think the best advice to like, how do I get good stop, start with the foreign and don't rush your surfing.

Devon Howard: Don't try to contrive it. Don't try to Like I'm gonna have. Make sure my hands are up here and I'll go like this. And I'm looking backwards and going, okay, that's go. You do you. But you know, that's not helping you surf better.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, yeah. You can you can be quick without being rushed.

Devon Howard: Exactly.

Michael Frampton: Like like a drummer that's drumming at 160 beats per minute. If they're ahead of the beat slightly. It sounds rushed, but if they're on the beat, it's in time. It's rhythm and they're nice and relaxed. They're still fast. They're just not rushed, utterly. And it's interesting you mentioned, like the hands curled and like this. If your hands are curled in like this, you will feel scared. Your physiology affects your emotions. That's a scared posture. That's a protective posture. So if you forcefully open up your hands, like Tony Robbins says, stand up tall and and straight and relaxed, you will feel better. But if you force yourself to smile, you will feel better inside. So I think that, you know, a bit of video analysis and analyzing your own style can actually and changing it can actually make surfing feel better as well. But, um, I love those tips. You just, um, said and it was a good summary and it's a great place to end. Devin, thank you so much.

Devon Howard: All right. I hope we, uh, made some sense there. It's fun to talk about it, because I've felt this stuff for a long time, but I don't really ever talk about it. And it's only just in recent times. And, um, I gotta thank Scott Hulett from The Surfer's Journal for getting the gears going in my mind of how to think about this stuff. Um, it's fun to share it, so I hope people get some value out of this conversation.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, we can if you come up with more thoughts on it, let me know. We get you back on and we'll expand because it's an important topic.

Devon Howard: Well, we're, um, we're in the middle of some fin placement on a mid lane, so I got to get back down there. So I also got this, um, dust down here.

Michael Frampton: All right. Thanks, Devin. I'll let you write. You get back to it.

Devon Howard: All right. Thank you. Michael. See you.

Devon Howard On Surf Mastery Podcast

Devon Howard On Surf Mastery Podcast