Medical Ethics Part 1 (Of Mice and Daddy Issues)

Down the Wormhole

Episode 83

For the next five weeks, we are going to talk about "medical ethics" broadly, but specifically about the various stages of being alive, from birth to death. In part 1, we're starting at the beginning. How much of who you are is determined at (or before) your birth? Can trauma be passed down genetically? Can generational cycles of unhealth be broken? Is there value in prenatal testing or does it create self fulfilling prophesies? How can we make sure that future generations are not saddled with our burdens?

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More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/

produced by Zack Jackson
music by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis

Further Reading

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190326-what-is-epigenetics

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fearful-memories-passed-down/

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/health/mind-epigenetics-genes.html?smid=url-share

https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/the-problems-with-prenatal-testing-for-autism/

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.

Zack Jackson 00:05

You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are

Rachael Jackson 00:14

Rachael Jackson, Rabbi at Agoudas, Israel congregation Hendersonville, North Carolina, and a trait that I see in myself that I can trace back is dark hair coloring, which I get from the my father's father, who was Iraqi Jewish.

Kendra Holt-Moore 00:35

Kendra Holt-Moore, PhD candidate at Boston University. And my trait that I've inherited from my family is having only two wisdom teeth.

Ian Binns 00:52

Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education that UNC Charlotte and the trait that I get from my dad's side of the family from the Binns side is the shape of my upper lip. We call it the Binns lip.

Zack Jackson 01:07

Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Reading Pennsylvania, and I am 2% Neanderthal on my mom's side, and maybe more on my dad's side, but we haven't tested that. And I like to think that's why I am so comfortable in the cold, and really appreciate a good Mammoth Burger. But we're talking about genetics a little bit today, because we are entering into a brand new mini series, broadly speaking about medical ethics, but divided up into the various life stages of, of being a human. So we're going to start with birth, as we, we often do, as humans, most of us, I think start with being born, moving into puberty, which most of us don't want to remember, then into pregnancy, general issues of age, and then end of life. And so we're gonna start with the start today. And as I was thinking about all of the different, all the different different issues connected with, with birth, with being born with all of these new medical procedures around testing, and Neo Natal surgeries and DNA, and knowing how much Neanderthal you are, I went and I got a haircut. And the guys in the barber shop, just randomly started talking about this stuff. But like, I'll try to frame it for you. So I'm sitting there, and one of my favorite parts about going to get my haircut is that I don't have to talk to anyone. And I get that at barber shops and not quite at salons. So I go there to just sit and have the Zen moment with the clippers and enjoy my ASMR experience. And so the guy, the barber next to me says, Oh, hey, we're having a boy. And every one of the barber shop is super excited. This is his first kid. And wow, I didn't even realize your girl was pregnant. Man. That's awesome. How did you find out so early? And he's like, Oh, well, we did that test, that blood test where you can tell like the gender of the kid and their testing for autism and all that stuff. And then this guy from across the bar across the barbershop is like, Man, that test is BS. They can't tell if your kid's gonna be autistic. And then he's like, Yeah, man, they totally can. And he's like, Well, why would you even want that mess? What are you going to do? And he's like, Well, you know, I want to be prepared. In case I'm my kids gonna be special needs. And he's like, whatever man. He's gonna be what is gonna be? Well, what are you gonna do read some books, you know, read books. He's like, I read books, you don't know me. And he's like, you know what? They said that my boy was gonna be autistic. And he came out just fine. He's like, the smartest kid in his class. And the other guy was like, yeah, most autistic people are super smart. He probably is autistic. And he's like, there's nothing wrong with being autistic. And I'm sitting here like, man, I just wanted to get my haircut.

Rachael Jackson 04:14

I want to know, on barber shop, like,

Zack Jackson 04:15

I know, I want to say something. Because now I've been thinking all about, about genetic testing and neonatal care and epigenetics, and all of this and, and that's when the guy was like, Well, do you have anyone that's autistic in your family? And he's like, Nah, man, I'm not my mom's not Dad's not grandparents now. I mean, my sister is but like, that's just because mom had like, really stressful pregnancy. And so my sister came out autistic because of that, and that at that point, I was like, Man, that now I really feel like I need to say something. But I didn't. Because I hadn't done my research yet. For the episode. Had I done the research for the episode, I'd be like, man, stop blaming your mom for all your problems. You are not Sigmund Freud. It is not entirely the mother's fault for everything that come that is wrong with the child. Also, let's reframe that a little bit that being autistic does not mean that there's something wrong with you that some of the most important humans that have ever lived, were on the autism spectrum.

Rachael Jackson 05:19

Yeah, neuro diversity.

Zack Jackson 05:21

Amen. For neuro diversity, if we were all neurotypical, what a boring world that would be. Yep. So I got to thinking, I got to thinking about what is the purpose of testing for these sorts of issues beforehand? What is the point of knowing your genetic predisposition to things? How, how much of an effect does it actually have? Like what kind of a life the mother lives while she's pregnant? Obviously, we know things like if mom is drinking heavily, or taking drugs, then that's gonna be passed on to the baby. But like, what if mom has a really stressful job? Or isn't sleeping very well? Or, like, how much is that messing up that baby's life? And I mean, I, I remember how stressed out my wife and I were her more than me, because I felt like my stress didn't affect the baby. But she was like mad. She was so scared that the actions that she took during this time we're going to ruin her baby's life, and what pressure to put on a person? And do we actually have any science to back that up whatsoever? So the answer is, yes. Also, no, but mostly No. But also Yes, because the field of epigenetics is still fairly recent. And there's a lot of controversy around it. And I should say what I mean, when I say epi genetics, is that you have DNA inside of you, that is the building block that makes you who you are, it is your blueprint, there is a series of, of chemicals that all went worked together make you the wonderful human being that you are now attached to those are also these little chemical markers that can turn things on and off on it. I remember Reading a while back about some scientists that were trying to recreate a dinosaur out of a chicken. I think we talked about this during the Jurassic Park episode, and that they're trying to reverse engineer it by like finding the parts of the chicken's genome that have to do with feathers, and then putting a little chemical marker on there to turn it off. So that then they don't grow feathers, and maybe they can find one where they can get teeth back again, where like, we can tell a lot about you based on your genome and the things that you have on and off on there. And so certain stressors in life, certain aspects, sunlight, even can affect which parts of the genes are expressed and which parts are not. And so that's what we mean by was the epi, genetics, none of this stuff is going to change your genome. But it is going to change how it is expressed, whether the light switch is on or off in the different parts of you. That I get that fairly accurate. Rachel, the chemist?

Rachael Jackson 08:13

Yeah, I think the only thing that I would also not the only thing, I would also add that these things can be turned on and off, not just in the neonatal state, but throughout a person's life. So for example, one of the things that we're we again, Oreo, we're not actually any of us, we are looking at his addictions, right that how do you know if this is if you're going to be addicted or not addicted? Or if that's, you know, there's, there can be a marker, but if you've, how do you know if you're going to be addicted to cocaine if you've never taken cocaine, like, so perhaps you need to have some cocaine before that marker gets switched on, you don't know one way or the other. So, same thing with other drugs, including drugs that we consider legal, such as alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, etc. Really how your body reacts to those things, you will not necessarily know the epigenetic outcome until you're exposed to it. So I just want to add that piece of not simply a neonatal neonatal field of study.

Zack Jackson 09:29

Sure.

Kendra Holt-Moore 09:30

Can I ask a clarifying question to Rachael and or Zack just that like, before we get too much further into the conversation? Can Can one of you describe more particularly like when we when we talk about chemical markers being turned on and off? Like what does that mean in a little more detail? Like what what's the chemical marker made out of and how does it attach itself to the jeans that we're talking about.

Zack Jackson 10:01

So there are three different and let me just pull this up. So I make sure I say it. Right.

Rachael Jackson 10:08

Yeah. And also, just as an FYI, I have several articles that we'll be putting in the show notes for people that want to read a little bit more about this, in addition to our explaining, Silliman the so let me let me make a different analogy and take it out of take it away from things that most of us are not comfortable with, right? Like, we're not going to talk the four things that make up DNA, right? We're not talking about base pairs, we're not talking about those things, right? Most people are not super comfortable with that language. Let me make an analogy to say your home. Right? My home right now. I'm currently in my bedroom, and I have curtains. And I also have lamps and light switches. Right? How much light do I have in my room right now? That depends if I have turned on my light switch. And that depends if I have opened my curtains. Why would I open my curtains because I want more light? Well, did I know that I was allergic to sunlight, not until I opened my curtains. Right? So something has to happen. So it's already there. It's something then that changes that says now, now this thing has happened. So for some it's a methylated zone. So if we then look at the actual DNA, it's a methylation process, or a D methylation process, it's adding or subtracting these things that are already there and turning them to a different form, which means some which is why the light switch works really well, because it's always there or curtains are always there. It's just whether or not you open, open them or close them. And so again, part of that is metallization is one of the big ones. That's what I would add that's there's a there's a big one there in terms of smoking, smoking cigarettes, is a big switch, a big activator of turning on things that will or will not happen in one's body. When that happens. One of those things is a methylation that happens on in this particular case, it's the A h r gene. But given that smoking is often a choice, I'm not saying it's not an addictive choice, but there is a choice there. Most people don't do it when they're born. And people have the ability to not do it. So you can actually monitor how much of this epigenetic change is happening in a person who, right before they smoked while they're smoking and former smokers and really what it looks like. So that's a really clear example, when you can look at an adult what's happening.

Zack Jackson 12:48

So the DNA metallization is one of three ways that this process can happen. The other way is through modifications that histone modifications, which is the the actual framework of the DNA, like the Think of it like the scaffolding of your DNA. The other way is micro RNA expression, which is something that I have a really cool experiment to talk about and a bit that, as far as we know, these three ways seem to be how how these genes get expressed in different ways. But some combination of three, it's not usually just one or the other. And there could be other mechanisms as well. It's not fully understood exactly how it happens, just that it does. And all of the all of this is also way above my head. So I just want to acknowledge that I'm not a biologist. And a lot of these words, I am also learning for the first time along with you fare listeners. A lot of the early, just almost intuitional epigenetic studies looked at the way that babies develop in the womb, while their mothers experiencing certain types of trauma, right, like famine, or displacement or something like that. And I think we've kind of known intrinsically that that sort of thing affects the child for 1000s of years. But it's always been an issue of mom's fault. So what's really fascinating about some of this study recently is they've done all these genetic studies on sperm because it's a lot Easier to study than eggs. And so there was this one study that was done that was published in 2013. In nature, which was fascinating, and kind of was a made a huge splash and a ton of controversy on both sides, and got picked up by all kinds of news outlets end misrepresented. in so many different ways. It's one of those groundbreaking sort of studies where extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So here's how here's how they laid out the experiment. They took a group of mice. And because scientists hate mice, they, they would expose them to a, a chemical called acetone, which is just a it's a scent, they use it in artificial smells all the time, it smells vaguely of cherry blossoms, they use that scent because they know exactly which odorant receptor in the olfactory bulb it corresponds to. So they don't have to guess where it is they know exactly where it is. And every time they expose them to that smell, they electrocuted their feet. Because they hate mice. And so they did this enough, such that when they would spray the gas, the mouse would get terrified. So they traumatize the poor mouse that they they correlated that smell with being electrocuted. So then they bred that mouse, and had that mouse be raised by a totally different parents. So then there was there was no acculturation whatsoever, and exposed that mouse to that smell, and found that that mouse also kind of freaked out by it.

Rachael Jackson 16:47

Now the second not the second generation mouse,

Zack Jackson 16:50

yeah, but not other smells. And they even they looked in the DNA of the sperm of that mouse that second generation, and found markers on that part of their DNA. And after it had they euthanize The poor thing, they autopsy the brain and found that that odorant receptor, that is corresponds to that particular smell, had more receptor cells, and then other smells. So that mouse was born, more attuned to that smell that its father was traumatized by, despite having not been raised by that mouse, or having any being taught anything about it. But then they bred that mouse and found that the next generation, so the grandson of the first one, still held those markers, and was overly receptive to that smell. So three generations of mice were traumatized by the same traumatic experience. And it was it changed how their bodies developed. Now, it didn't change their DNA. And that's important, it did not change their DNA, it changed how their DNA was expressed. So that that expression caused that part of their olfactory bulb to make more cells, so they'd be more sensitive to that awful smell that hurt their grandfather. And so it's important, and this is what the news people got wrong was that the future generations weren't scared of the smell. It didn't ruin them. It wasn't that the fear was passed down through generations, or the trauma was passed down through generations. But the effects of it, the sensitivity to it was passed down three generations. As as you know, as you would expect, this is evolutionarily helpful, that if some environmental trauma is introduced into into an area, you want your future generations to be able to avoid the thing. And so they're adapting in real time, to this awful thing that is happening to them. And then a couple of years later, and this is the super hopeful part. They and a number of other people redid the experiment. But this time, they exposed a separate group of mice to the smell traumatize them did the whole thing, that awful thing that they because they hate mice, and then they stopped electrocuting them. But they would still give them the smell. But they wouldn't electrocute them. And then of course, the mouse would be scared and they'd be scared and but eventually they stopped being scared of the smell. And then that next generation was did not have those markers. They did not have a larger olfactory bulb, they did not have the predisposition to fearing or being more receptive to that. So in essence, one of those, that generation overcame it by being exposed to it without the Negative, traumatic effect attached to it. And it changed their epigenetic markers changed in their sperm, so that it no longer passed that down to the next generation.

Rachael Jackson 20:12

Like, like, they basically said, Hey, this was trauma, but it's not actually trauma anymore. So let's, let's rewind, let's rewire ourselves again to say, this activity, this sense is safe.

Zack Jackson 20:29

Right? Which again, makes sense from a evolutionary perspective that now things have adapted and the other way. And so now, our genes don't have to protect us from that anymore. And I'm trying so hard not to draw really strong conclusions from this because my goodness gracious will this preach this, this feels intuitively correct, right? I mean, how much of our, in our, in our scriptures in our religious traditions are around generational sin, generational punishment, generational trauma, the sins of the Father that go down seven generations, like how much of overcoming that is baked into our religious stories that we tell, and I want this to be true, but it is very, very much in the infancy and we do not understand the mechanisms by which this would even happen. Because when, when a sperm and an egg, you know, get together and do their do their fun thing. Most of them epigenetic markers are stripped from the DNA of the sperm. And then it all gets reconfigured inside. And so it shouldn't work. So there has to be another mechanism that's at play here that's making it happen. Or it's all just wishful thinking on the part of the researchers. And it's all Bs, and we want it to be true because it feels true. So I need to make that disclaimer right here. Because epigenetics feels like it would solve so many problems, and explain scientifically so much of what we experience. But it also might not, it might just be wish fulfillment,

Rachael Jackson 22:10

right? Stop blaming your grandparents for things that are happening in your life, right? Like we don't, we don't need to do that either. But I, I'm looking at this from a slightly from a similar perspective, but perhaps a bit differently. Not being able to, to wish away things that we see happening. But these, these experiments are so tightly controlled, looking for one tiny thing, to then make the leap that it would go to us. And we could then identify all of our generational trauma, through these things to make that leap feels exceedingly large. First of all, right, like it's one smell, one type of creature. Three, generally, it's, it's so tiny, so narrow in its scope. So that would be my disclaimer. And so when we then move to say, humans, which is, I think, where our narcissism takes us. Why does it matter? What read this question, also of if you go seeking for something, if you ask a question, what are you going to do with the answer? So go back to your barber shop people? Why are they asked like, why did you do the blood test? What do you look at? Oh, to get prepared for what? You don't know You don't? Okay? So barring the incorrect understanding that this can tell you autism or not autism, which is not been proven at all, so let's dispel that. But if that were the case, autism itself expresses itself in Oh, very vastly different ways that a person can't actually be prepared for that. One cannot prepare themselves for some of these traits that we may or may not be looking for. It's very different than straight up genetic traits. Right, straight up, you know, this person has different genes, which causes them to have Tay Sachs, which causes them to have CF. That cough was timed appropriately. Another questions that we're looking at, so why are we asking these questions? What will it actually give us because if you ask the question, You have to do something with the answer.

Ian Binns 25:04

Well, and with that, and maybe reminded me of when we learned that animals pregnant, and throughout the pregnancy, I remember just kind of asking one day, so we're gonna do those genetic tests, because I didn't really know anything about him, right? And you just kind of hear about him and stuff. And I just was curious, like, it didn't really matter me either way. And I remember she kind of said the same thing that you were kind of talking about Rachel, was that, what would we do with that information? Like, is that going to determine if we, you know, would end a pregnancy or not? Again? For our purposes? Probably not. Enough, just like them? Yeah, there's really no point for us to do that. You would. So and that was just that was our decision. That was our choice. Was that was a decision we made? And so yeah, and it was not a long conversation. I don't remember it being something that we really discussed at length to figure out what should we do here or not, it was more just a casual conversation. And that was the choice we made? Well, if

Zack Jackson 26:07

you can identify in your family, a history of dysfunction, and you can say like, yeah, grandfather, great grandfather was a prisoner of war, and came home different. And, and then he had kids, and those kids, and they had a rough go of things, and then kind of our family ever since then, has been battling with with abuse and dysfunction, and addiction and all of these things. And if you understand that, you know, part of that is upbringing, right? hurting people hurt people. But a part of that, if you can identify it could be epigenetically, transmitted from great grandfather's prisoner of war time. And you could identify that yourself, would that be something that you would find empowering, to say, this is something that is within me, but I can overcome it. And I have studies on poor traumatized mice? To show that I don't have this can end with me. And it doesn't have to go to my children? Or does it then just run the risk of, of creating self fulfilling prophecies that well, now I know that my family is just messed up, and it's in my genes, there's nothing I can do to stop it. Or it gives an excuse that now I'm off the hook, because it's, you know, great grandpa's fault.

Rachael Jackson 27:36

In a sort of lightened mood, comment. Who Framed Roger Rabbit in the movie from a very long time ago? Such a great movie, there's a line in there where the female, female, Jessica, she says, you know, in her very sultry voice, you know, I'm not bad. I'm just drawn this way. Is she just saying that it's not in her power? Now, I feel like I've taken up a lot of airspace. So I'd like to hear from a few of the other people here. How this strikes you, right? Yeah, no,

Kendra Holt-Moore 28:26

I just, I just find epigenetics. so confusing. So

Rachael Jackson 28:31

I just don't

Kendra Holt-Moore 28:34

I don't know. The a couple of things I was thinking about, though, is one just like the issue of people choosing to get all the testing done when they're pregnant or not pregnant. I, I've never had kids. So I'm not speaking out of experience here. But just like, I've known people who have had, like difficult circumstances in terms of like health, health problems, like the decisions to make a testing a priority when you're pregnant don't have to just be entirely about, like what your future child is going to deal with or not deal with. But I think there is also like a legitimate concern about wanting to know what your chocolate the state of your child will be, say it that way. Because that can mean a lot of different things. Because you might not be able to prepare for you know, what, what they will experience but if there are other people that you're already taking care of, or if you're like trying to take care of yourself, or a partner. I do think there's something valuable. And I'm not trying to diminish like obviously, there's a lot of really tricky ethical considerations that are like inherent to this discussion. But I think that it's just about like wanting to feel control. And it doesn't really matter. Like, I don't I don't know that you have to do something with the answer if you ask the question. And maybe, maybe not doing something with the answer is like a form of doing something with the answer. Or, you know, like, maybe it's just that the psychological comfort or illusion that you get that you have control? Is what you're doing with the answer to those questions about testing. And, honestly, I don't know whether or not that's something that I would want personally, because there is a part of me that thinks I would be like, forget it, like, let's just jump right in and see what happens. But there's also a significant part of me that would want to know, everything I possibly could not because it would make, make me do anything differently. But I love having the illusion of control over life. And my life. And so, you know, if I can get that, from from these tests, and that, that feels really appealing. And I imagine that there are a lot of people for whom that, yeah, that feels really comforting. And it's not, that's not to say that, you know, the comfort we receive from this kind of, like, genetic testing is worth the other risks that come with it ethically. And, you know, like, there's, I have, I have this fear that we're heading into a, you know, will basically just be living out a dystopian novel plot in like, 30 years. But like, I get it, I get the appeal of wanting to have

31:57

so hopeful

Kendra Holt-Moore 31:59

wanting to have that control and just know, like, knowledge, it's so appealing. And it doesn't matter. I think for a lot of people it doesn't, I don't know, that people are really thinking through what their behavioral changes would be. It's just like, if you can peek behind the curtain and see what's behind it. It's just like curiosity a lot of times. And so I, I tend to think that that is actually a pretty significant driver, and like motivator to do this kind of thing. And and that that's, even though that's true, that doesn't mean that we should stop asking these other like, really significant ethical questions about, you know, at what cost Does, does this knowledge will, like, how will this change us in the future? But yeah, I don't know, I just, that's kind of what I'm been thinking about?

Ian Binns 32:58

Well, it's still no guarantee. Right? So say, like, these tests could show something, or, you know, whatever level they can show or something like that, but still was not like, as far as I understand that. It's, oh, you get this test? And it's a definitive answer. Either way, what what would happen?

Zack Jackson 33:16

They can tell within I think, 99% certainty whether or not your child has Down syndrome.

Rachael Jackson 33:22

So I think there's the the big difference, and this is where I'll just jump in the difference between epigenetics and genetics. Yeah, genetics, they can tell pretty easily right, and they're high, highly accurate, just like the genetics have an anatomical gender, right there. That's pretty clear what that is. And it being very specific that it's anatomical, right? No, no genetic testing, not ultrasound testing. Right. ultrasounds, then it's like, most of the time, it's more of the, you know, when you're looking at an ultrasound, is there a penis is there not a penis? And so there can be something wrong with that ultrasound, but if you do the blood testing, there's no question again, from the sex perspective, right, is this x y or z or x x right from that perspective, not talking the gender that we feel those are those are highly accurate. epigenetics, not right. epigenetics is like, for example, if we take this idea that and we go back to our grandparents, you know, your grandmother, right, you a grandmother was alcoholic, and your father is alcoholic, are you going to be alcoholic? And then there was nothing else going on? Right? There was no abuse. There was nothing else is just this person was an alcoholic? Can you determine if you yourself will then be addicted and changed by alcohol? Are you one of the people that can just take a drink? and totally be fine with that level of that question? And for the most part, that's where it's not clear? And what are you going to do with that information? So and that that's for me, one of the places where we could be positive about it, I'm saying, Okay, if I see some epigenetic markers, as well as the nurture part of this alcohol I have seen happen, do I, then this third generation choose to have alcohol in my life? Or do I choose not to? And do I then, if I choose to? Am I a little bit more heightened, that something could be amiss, or that's something that my reaction may not be the reaction that keeps me in control, right, Kendra was talking about liking this ability to control, right that we want to have that. And alcohol is one of those things that doesn't allow you to be in control usually. So if you then see yourself going down that path, are you capable of saying, Ah, this, this is not the reaction that I'm looking for. And I see this history, I can stop this. So where I'm coming from is a if we have this knowledge, using it wisely. And not presuming that it's black and white? Yeah,

Kendra Holt-Moore 36:27

I do think I might have a confused our terminology when I because I said genetic epigenetics is so confusing. And then I just started talking about genetic testing. So sorry, I didn't

Zack Jackson 36:40

know it's a very confusing. So I knew a guy. He, his mother drank heavily when she was pregnant. And he was born with fetal alcohol syndrome. And so he's lived his whole life in a group home, and not able to function on his own. And I gave him a part time job at the thrift store I used to run and he, I loved the guy, he's sincere as can be, and was just, he had a heart of gold. And he felt like he was paying for his mother's sins. And that his life was a sort of punishment for her sins. And there was this mix up of just the consequences of a person's actions or traumas or addictions, and then a moral component to it. Of the why. Right, like, why did this happen? Well, obviously, now I'm paying for the sins of someone before me. And that's, I mean, that shows up in almost every religion in the world. And we all do it, that we think we're paying for something, as if there's some cosmic weight that needs to be counterbalanced. And there's a story in which some people bring a man to Jesus who was blind from the time he was born. So if he is blind as a result of being punished for something, and he was blind at birth, it couldn't have been his sin. Right? The couldn't have been retroactively cursed. So therefore, it must have been the sins of his parents, right? So who sinned that this man was born blind, and Jesus looked at them, and he was like, I mean, neither. This man was born blind, so that you could shut the hell up, essentially. And then he healed the guy and was like, stop thinking in these terms. Sometimes things just happen. And it's not somebodies moral fault, nobody's being punished because they're suffering in the world. But suffering in the world exists. And I'm going to try to eliminate as much of it as possible. And how about you do that too, instead of wasting your time trying to find blame for things?

Rachael Jackson 39:02

I really I appreciate that Reading it I hadn't I hadn't heard that story. I'm not super versed in stories of the Bible.

Zack Jackson 39:12

I mean, that's my translation. Jesus doesn't say Shut the hell up. Clearly.

Rachael Jackson 39:18

Um, you know, when looking through the the Jewish lens when we get to those passages, right, because they certainly appear in Leviticus and Deuteronomy sounds like yeah, for generations. It is what it says. But there's also the, the the flip side of it, that the righteous shall have 1000 generations. But read that that, if you're really good 1000 generations will also be really good. And so, so there's a couple of reads there. The first is there's an end rate 1000 is just 1000 generations is an absurd number written, none of us can really conceptualize of that that value. Okay, so it really just means forever if you're righteous, your kin shall be righteous. And if you're sinful, it'll end. Right for generations, you're dead. Right, for the most part, we don't know, for generations as adults. So by that point, once you're dead, then the then the following generation will have the ability to choose themselves. So it's not a perpetual. It's not a perpetual state. It's not a it's not for all time. So that's, that's one read. Again, still don't love this read, because it still does blame previous generations. Then there's another section in the Talmud, which talks about these passages, which basically says, Ah, yes, for generations, only if the sun because remember, the Talmud is completely the misogynistic and only talks about men. Unless, you know, women has have a fault. And then they'll talk about it says, Ah, it's only four generations, if the son of the first person continues in his father's footsteps, which basically says, actually, it's only four generations, if you yourself participate. If you don't break the cycle, then it will continue for a little bit longer. So if you and you can break the cycle, you can, if we look at the the big 10 commandments, number five is Honor your father and your mother. If your father or your mother is doing something that breaks all of the other commandments, then you must break that when you say I cannot do this, if your father says glassbeam, then you shouldn't, if your father says kill, you shouldn't. But if you follow them, because you think you're honoring them, you're actually dishonouring the rest of your community, and don't do that you have the power to stop it. Just because your parents did it doesn't mean you have the same fate. And that's where this this beautiful power of autonomy, power of the self comes in that i think i think i think we absolutely have to give ourselves that ability. That and it has nothing to do with the Odyssey, which is what I which is what I hear you saying, Zack, is that Judaism? Doesn't. Judaism doesn't look at this from a theater. theodicy lens. Why evil things happen in the world? Right.

Zack Jackson 42:36

And it's also, I mean, I'd be remiss if we didn't say that a lot of these sins of the Father get passed down generations are highly situational. You know, there's a study that they, this is, of course, very retroactive, but looked at the birth and death records of Civil War soldiers. and looked at the Civil War soldiers who were prisoners of war, versus those who were not in came home, and then also had kids after the war. So this prisoners of war during the Civil War were horribly mistreated. So they came home emaciated, and on death's door, and found that the next generation born after them, died earlier and had more cardiac issues than those who were just soldiers who saw war, but we're not prisoners of war. So on average, those soldiers who experience more trauma, the next generation died earlier. And now you can read backwards into that. And you can say that that's because they that those trauma, the trauma marked those men sperm, and it made them more sensitive, they made their children more sensitive to anxiety, for example, they're hyper alert. And so their heart was always racing, they died of heart attacks at young age, you can also look back at that, and you can look at it from a sociological perspective, and that if men came back from the war and macerated and broken, they probably were not able to work as hard or contribute as much to their family. So they probably were ended up being more poor, there were no big social safety nets back then. And so those children are probably malnourished because their dad was unable to work as much. And then that then perpetuated a system in in that that maybe was partially genetic, but it was also very social. And we need to make sure that we are not just making our genetics another scapegoat, the way that we did with God punishing people before, because then that lets us off the hook for not changing the world as it is. Because this is one of the huge focuses of the early church like the pre Roman early church, before we got in bed with empire for the first couple, 100 years was all On caring for the widows and orphans, which were essentially the people who had no social safety net, who were not being taken care of, and so who were going to perpetuate systems of oppression by their existence. And there's a wonderful story did I did I talked about St. Lawrence at all. He's one of my favorite dead Christians. He was the deacon of Rome. And that means he was in charge of all the charity and the money. And the local ruler was like, hey, so there's this edict coming out that we're gonna have to round up all the Christians and kill them. However, I know that you are in charge of the purse. So if you just give me the treasures of the church, I will give you a 10 day headstart you can get out of here and you can be safe, you just need to give me the treasures of the church, which I'm going to have anyway. So but this way you and your family can get out of town. So he goes and he liquidates all of the assets of the church. And he gives away all of the gold to the widows and orphans, the poor of the city, that are parts of the church. And then when the time comes, he brings all of them with him. All of the, the the crippled the poor everyone to that ruler and says, Behold, the treasures of the church, our God is far richer than your Caesar will ever be. And the guy was like, man, I do not take this kind of sass from stupid little Christians. And so he had him strapped to a grid iron and put over a fire, because he's Roman, and they're awful. And after a couple of minutes said to him, Have you had enough at Do you recant, and Lawrence said, I'm done on this side, turn me over. So instead of becoming like this patron saint of smart acids or something, he becomes the patron saint of chefs. And so I have a lovely St. Lawrence icon in my kitchen. And he's holding a grid iron with like some onions and garlic hanging off of it. And he's real happy. And he's like, Hey, I'm the patron saint of chefs, when the story is that he was grilled on one. And

47:18

this is

Zack Jackson 47:20

this is why I wanted to dead Christian story hour because man, the stories of these crazy dead Christians, but like, that's the spirit of the early church is the the disenfranchised, those that are being left behind who generationally are being cursed by society, those are the ones that we're here to serve, to bring them out of the generational cycles. And so we need to just make sure no matter where we are on this genetic roller coaster of understanding that we keep that in focus, and we don't blame our DNA, and we still make the changes that need to be made. Yeah,

48:18

I think that

Kendra Holt-Moore 48:20

you've like touched on what makes me just pause in conversations about epigenetics is that, like, regardless of how I just don't even know how to like, describe what it is that I'm thinking, I'm thinking of like the theological explanations of epigenetics. However, those theological interpretations, either shame people for what they are experiencing, or even, like, uplift and empower people for, you know, what they experience. Either way, I just get this sort of like, like cringy shrinking feeling, because I don't like the theological explanations of epigenetic phenomenon, whatever that even means. I'm still like, not entirely sure. It just, I guess I just, I just worry that it's like such an easy it's such an easy conversation to turn towards blame or like deterministic. You know, like,

49:33

well, like,

Kendra Holt-Moore 49:35

what what you both Zach and Rachel, I think said especially earlier early in our episode, like blaming your mom or blaming your grandparents for everything, and, and you know, if you want to put the theological spin on it, I don't know it just it just feels so like. It makes me very uncomfortable. Like, you were cursed. And so God did this to you. I really Like, oh, it feels really similar to the conversations that happened sometimes were like natural disasters happen to that community because they're sinful. That's what I keep thinking about is like, that. Just, it just makes me angry. And so I, it doesn't really matter how generous or not generous, we're being with, like, the theological interpretations of epigenetic phenomenon, I just, I don't know, my head is just kind of like swirling with it, that that's what I've been thinking about. And I think that what you just said, that helped me sort of put together why I'm like, I don't know what to say about

Rachael Jackson 50:42

it's that feeling that you just, you know, you got creepy crawlies and just want to take a shower. Like, it's just, it's just icky. For me, when we add all of those layers in, it takes away individual control, it takes away our ability to look at the world and say, I have a role in this, and I have a I have a role to make it better, myself included in that world.

Kendra Holt-Moore 51:08

And to me, it gives us the ability to ignore other like social conditions that people have no control over, like, you know, the wealth that you inherit, or don't inherit. And you know, it like that, I think is also like a significant part of it is like, is it? Is it epi genetics? Or is it just like bad luck?

Rachael Jackson 51:30

I don't know,

Kendra Holt-Moore 51:32

are those the same thing? I don't know.

Zack Jackson 51:35

But it can also give you an an a heightened sense of empathy. If you understand that this person is acting beyond their control because of forces that were before their birth. And so it might help you to have a little bit more grace with people acting badly. And then get past that to then find ways of ending that cycle. Because even even in electrified mice, we know that we can break the cycle. And we know that through our religious traditions and are our social traditions we know that we can break the cycle with we've seen it done historically, we know how it can be done. We just have to have the willpower to do it.