EP206: Mastering the Art of Silence How Pauses Can Improve Discovery

Market Dominance Guys

What's the secret sauce to nailing discovery calls? Is it your intricate questioning strategy? Your ability to build quick rapport? We're exploring an underappreciated element today - the power of tonality.

From a Marine drill sergeant's verbal shock and awe to real estate power players commanding eight-figure deals, our esteemed guests get vocal about vocal dynamics.

Join Chris, Corey, and their guests, Henry Wojdyla and Shawn Sease as they battle assumptions, pregnant pauses, and the occasional restraining order. You'll hear straight from the horse's mouth why tonality eclipses terminology and how losing your cool in discovery can cost you deals. If your team overlooks today's vocal victory tips, you'll condemn them to tone-deaf discovery call defeats. Listen to this episode: Mastering the Art of Silence: How Pauses Can Improve Discovery

Links from this episode:

Shawn Sease on LinkedIn
Henry Wojdyla on LinkedIn
Corey Frank on LinkedIn
Chris Beall on LinkedIn

Branch49
ConnectAndSell

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:

Corey Frank (01:14):

Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys, with Corey Frank, and of course, always at my virtual side is Chris Beall, the stage of sales, the prophet of profit and the hawking of caulking. But we also have two other extra special guests. We happen to be graced in our in-house home Phoenix GCU-based studios with the professor of prospecting, Shawn Sease himself. Good afternoon, Shawn.

Shawn Sease (01:42):

Good afternoon. Thanks for having me.

Corey Frank (01:43):

And we have one of our eight registered listeners, Chris, of our podcast, the most gracious and esteemed Henry Wojdyla from RealSource. Henry, it's great to have you on the podcast, back on the podcast. I think you're one of our earlier guests, I believe so, Chris. So good to have you, gentlemen. We have a first here at Market Dominance Guys. We actually have four talking heads, three brains amongst four talking heads, so we'll see what we can do here.

(02:12):

What we wanted to talk about is something we were talking about before we jumped on air. And Chris, I want to have you have the opportunity to tee up Henry, because I thought it was a compelling topic about tonality, but not just in cold calls, which we often talk about the surfboard and the surfer. But Henry brought up a very compelling point. Shawn, I'd like to get your take on this too, about the importance of tonality and when and how you use it in discovery calls. Chris, so I'll leave it to you to tee up our good friend Henry here and let's dive into this topic.

Chris Beall (02:42):

Sure. I mean, the conversation we were just having was about how much of the, well, we were talking a little bit about Branch 49 and how much of the waterfront makes sense to cover or the funnel or whatever. The big question is always, where's the bottleneck? We always talk about theory of constraints on this show, and we also know if you ever address the bottleneck, you got to stand back. You have to stand back when you've done something about the constraint and see if it moves and if so, where it moves because it's actually not easy to predict. It could move up or it could move down, so to speak, in the processes. Doesn't move sideways too often.

(03:16):

And Henry was talking about how when we were just chatting out there, not where you're sitting, not where he's sitting or he's sitting or I'm sitting, but where somebody else's or you're sitting, Corey. He was talking about how the tonality and disfluency is also the whole tonality package I call it, has actually become as important or more important to him as he's evolved in the way that he does discovery. And what I thought was so cool about what he hit on is we call it the confessional. And the question is, well, what are you confessing to? And while you're doing that confessing, are you learning? Are you getting self-knowledge, knowledge of your situation as a result that's facilitated by the conversation? And I think that was a point that Henry was making. So at that, Henry, what was the point you were making? Because frankly, I was just eating tacos and listening in.

Henry Wojdyla (04:09):

Well, it was probably the ride-on piece to the opening comment I made about some recent conversations, Chris, you and I have had, and I'll keep it brief to get back to your question. But the fact that the top of funnel has been improved so much by the good thinking here from Market Dominance Guys, the facilitation from ConnectAndSell, it gets back to the wood-turning analogy that you had so wisely laid out probably at least a couple of years ago on this podcast. But the idea that I can get enough reps in that I'm beginning to pattern match and seeing ghosts in the machine, so to speak, as it relates to discovery. And a lot of what I've been discovering about my own discovery process has been effectively getting out of the way. And a lot of getting out of the way is facilitating the prospect to do more and more self-discovery.

(04:54):

I will tell you that I'm not quite, I don't have a fully baked theory on this yet or the framework has not been completely fleshed out. So this is definitely a work in progress and I'd say some of my insights are only really becoming to manifest in the last couple of months, but tonality has been a huge piece of that. So getting back more to the core of what Corey and you are asking me. The tonality piece, not just open-ended questions, but the framing of those questions in a way that elicits, I think hopefully a sign of genuine concern and a search for meaning from the prospect so that they can effectively self-discover by being more open, not necessarily just from a trust perspective, but I think almost more open in their own thinking, what they are willing to put out there. I know I'm speaking in very broad strokes, but nonetheless, it's like I said, it's a work in progress, but I'm realizing just how crucial tonality is in the discovery call.

(05:50):

I was thinking it was primarily in the domain of a cold call. It very much is too. But I've been slowly peeling back the layers of my own self-limiting beliefs on this topic. And in fact, Corey, as I think I mentioned to you a little bit before, I was frankly a bit skeptical when I was an early listener of just the importance of phrasing, tonality, voice. I thought, "Oh, that's just huckster salesmanship type stuff," and I'm a convert. So I've come a long way in that and I'm just realizing that not only is it important, but it's important across a broader range of the sales cycle.

Corey Frank (06:26):

Well, it still may be huckster sales-type stuff, but it works. It's the laws of gravity. I may not believe in gravity, but gravity believes in me. Shawn, from your perspective, especially being a DISC connoisseur, what do you say to what Henry is confessing to us here about tonality and with the four different types of personalities perhaps are some personalities more susceptible, more open to that verbal disfluency, the ahs and the ums and generating that authenticity where it doesn't sound like a TED Talk, it doesn't sound like the 150th time I've done this?

Shawn Sease (07:06):

I think that the research on the personality stuff, especially the DISC, the four different personality types, that data is pretty conclusive that it does matter how you speak to people. But it's probably not, it's one of many, many different data points. But to answer your question directly, to get in the weeds a little bit, the I, the influence type in DISC are the kind of people that will eat up a whole entire discovery call talking about their fishing trip if you forget to get them on task. And in contrast, example to that is if you're talking to somebody calculative like a CFO, an engineer or something like that, you may want to dispense with pleasantries. But on the other hand, I think it's still very effective to just be mindful of the words that we use, like genuine transparency or being transparent, being genuine, being authentic, empathetic, things like this.

(07:57):

If you're not being true to those definitions, I mean, in even a maybe religious way or something like that, if it's not true, then it comes across as disingenuous and that just reeks. It reeks of sales and commerce and things like this. And so yeah, there's no doubt about it, tone, pace, pitch, all very important. And if you're listening pretty well, people will tell you everything and people are just dying to tell you their stories. And that's what I always find weird about people who have trouble with discovery. And I would trace it right back to your inability to not only create a rapport with somebody so that you have a longstanding rapport, but at the very moment that you start a conversation that you can enter a rapport.

(08:36):

And let me give you an example. Frequently, I send Chris weird messages maybe at 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00 at night or something like this when I have an idea. And Chris will come back and tell me, "Hey, it's a bad time. I'm walking. I'm getting on a plane to go to Europe," or Australia or something like this. So Chris and I have a rapport, but sometimes when I call him up, it's the wrong time and we have an inability to begin a rapport, to have a conversation about what I wanted to talk to you. Timing's not right. And just pay attention to what someone's telling you and they'll tell you everything you need to know.

Corey Frank (09:04):

Do you find, that's an excellent point. It begets the question, Henry and Chris, on to partition a discovery call. We could break this down like our friend Oren Klaff does when he does a pitch. Are there certain aspects, Henry and Chris, when you're conducting the discovery call that you've found or that you discovered require more sensitivity to tonality, verbal disfluencies than other portions of the call? For instance, you're talking about pricing, you're talking about pain, or when you're talking about building the rapport upfront, anything that you've observed or anything that you discovered in that area?

Henry Wojdyla (09:44):

I would say if I had to frame it, if there's a typical structural pattern to my discovery calls, it's probably, I'll call it step two. The first step to some degree is a little bit of a slight recalibration of, okay, why are we here? Why are we assembled today? I will provide a little bit of additional contextual reminder of why we had reached out because it's not uncommon that our discovery calls, I mean, I'm speaking for the most part to fairly senior-level executives. So at the earliest, we are usually two weeks beyond when that discovery call was scheduled. They have full calendars, they're busy. So there's just a little bit of the first phase of a bit of reminder, some context, here's what we do, here's where the Venn diagram overlaps. Hopefully, that process is a little bit of a trust that's being reestablished or built upon even further.

(10:28):

Again, the tonality can be part of that. But I would say as parts of really the discovery is then trying to transition out of that because it's not really a commercial about us when I open, it's just a contextual framework. Then it's about getting into them what they're doing, what's on their, I guess their windscreen? What are they looking at or through that is really directing where they're vectoring as a company, as a firm. In our world where we're dealing with a subset of commercial real estate assets, so there's a lot of things that tie into not only internal factors, but external factors. And I think it's getting a lay of the land. And then they contextualize their piece. Now we've gone from serving up from our side a contextual reason why we're here today. Then we get phase two where they have responded back somewhat contextualizing where they fit in the marketplace, and then we start diving into the here and the now.

(11:21):

And I think that's where, we would call it step three, where I'm beginning to get this, getting back to the piece we're talking about, which is getting them to dial into the moment. Where does their company fit into the framework of the current market, the current dynamics? How are they seeing on a go forward basis? And getting them to start having thoughtful, self-reflective conversation. That's the piece that I was referring to earlier. So that's a very long-winded answer to your question. I would say it's that third step, if you will. And again, like I did mention a moment ago, this is still a work in progress for me, so that my thinking is not as clarified as I'd like it to be on this. But I can just tell you this is again, this is some of the pattern matching that I'm starting to see unfold here over the last few months.

(12:08):

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Corey Frank (12:55):

And Chris, you're a big believer in our friend Chris Voss and a lot of the mirroring techniques that he used. And I could see how mirroring could be incredibly effective in certain aspects of discovery.

Chris Beall (13:07):

Yeah, I mean, I divide these conversations into two big domains. One is the domain of the factual, where you're relatively safe talking about things that are factual. Some might be more sensitive than others. Facts, if somebody were to get in a discovery call with me and two minutes into the call they say, "So Chris, what's connectandsell? What's your current run rate revenue? What are your gross margins? And who on your team are you most concerned about that you think you might have to do something about?" And they do that two minutes in, it's like, I can go on there. Whereas in a second call or somewhere, sometime we really have a reason to talk about those facts, they won't have to be as skilled and just waiting helps. That's what Shawn was talking about. Just sometimes you just got to wait.

(14:00):

A disfluency is simply a form of waiting. You're waiting and letting that moment be filled in with what's in their mind. It's like when I teach really young people to play the piano, I always make this point, which is you only need to provide the structure, the sound, they'll fill in the rest in their head. The music happens over there, not out here, and not in our hands. It happens inside of them. But then there's another whole range of things that we do end up sometimes hitting on, which are really sensitive issues, like political issues internally, or concerns that this person might have about their own job, or maybe they're not going to be at that company anymore. And if they would tell you that, that'd be great. Where I think we get hung up there, and where I think tonality, disfluencies, mirroring, all of these techniques that... I never really think of them much as techniques, but all of these kinds of things you could find yourself doing if you were any good at this stuff.

(14:58):

Where they're just super important is where it's highly likely there are incorrect assumptions being held by you and by the other party. And it's really hard to get underneath incorrect assumptions because in order to correct one, you have to give up something that you believe. You have to or they have to. People don't like to give up anything. We all know that old thing, if I take 50 bucks from you, you'll fight me until the end of time. If I offer you 50 bucks, you'll ignore me and go on with your cat videos. It is a very tricky business to get beyond assumptions.

(15:34):

I had one just the other day that was interesting. I was conducting a discovery call with a very senior person at a huge insurance company. He had a very specific problem that he had been advised we could help with. I jumped to the wrong conclusion about the nature of the potential solution, and then seven minutes later, thank goodness, he said, "No, no, you don't get it. What we want to do is X." Thank goodness he felt okay correcting my assumption, which was incorrect. But that's where had I been a little less sure of myself, I wouldn't have gone as far down that road and we wouldn't have wasted seven minutes. So it's like that TED Talk thing, talking as though you know what you're talking about causes other people to feel like they should either oppose you or shut up.

Corey Frank (16:25):

Right. Well, I think, Shawn, certainly your career, just like you have Mr. Rice on board at ConnectAndSell who's a former Marine, Shawn, the importance of tone, if you're a drill instructor, were you a Hollywood Marine or are you a Parris Island Marine? I never think we uncovered that yet.

Shawn Sease (16:43):

I was outside of the runway in San Diego. California, US Marine Corps, Recruit Depot in San Diego.

Corey Frank (16:51):

Okay. So you talk about the first couple of days establishing tone, Chris, certainly, I don't imagine verbal disfluencies, Henry, worked too well with a drill instructor trying to influence 17, 18-year-olds getting off the bus, putting their feet on the yellow footprints. So how did tone influence you from a perspective of raising the stakes about what you need to know about what you're going to go through for the next 13?

Shawn Sease (17:17):

Yeah, tone down, I can't even, it's frightening. I mean, it's actually frightening for an 18-year-old to be at bootcamp. It's frightening. Let me tell you this. Tonality is everything and it is just shock the fear into you. It's basically a reset. You just forget everything that you learned somewhere else because when you walk out of here, you're going to have a whole new plan for how you go about doing things. All the way from lining up your belt to shaving, to lining up your, just being completely squared away. But I'll tell you a funny story because you imagine having a name, a last name like Sease on the firing line when you're going to learn to fire your rifle. And I was accused of being so goddamn stupid that I'd start firing when they said, "Cease fire." So yeah, right now I think about it right now, I start shrinking because I remember, "I get it, man. I am not going to fire my rifle. I know what cease means. I get it." But it's just relentless.

(18:14):

So I know what cease fire means and I know that my trigger should, I mean, this is 30 years ago. I could still hear it like it was yesterday. Trigger finger off the trigger unless firing, it's in me. It's embedded in me. So yeah, tonality can be even more important in the Marine Corps training folks where you're actually trying to basically shock someone and strip them of everything that they've learned so far so that you could be created in the Marine Corps image, like a God mold kind of thing.

(18:43):

But one thing I wanted to touch on that popped up in my mind when it comes to discovery, and earlier we were talking, I shared with you this phrase that I've been using recently, which is I'm seeing a lot of teams gaining short-term tactical wins, specialization, other tools, things like this. Quick wins, dopamine hits at the expense of long-term strategic failures. So you get these short-term wins by automations, chat, all these, whatever, you'll make it work. If it's ChatGPT, you're going to go do that and go, "Wow, look what I made?" Short-term win, tactical win, long-term strategic failure. And one of the things that I think about when it comes to discovery is that, and again, it's just another real simple phrase is that we either do it together or we don't do it at all. In other words, in discovery for me is that I also have some things that I need to know about you, not like the pains and the problems and how we can help you and things like that.

(19:35):

But how does your company actually buy something? When was the last time you bought something? Who else do I need to get involved with this? It's the two-way street to build a mutual going forward, and it always seems like it ends up being more of a battle, like a sparring match or something like that. Like I am trying to get these answers, questions from you. Can I convince you that we solve a pain or something like that? And we too quickly get away from that concept of we either do this together or, that's me saying that. We either do this together or we don't do it at all. Which means that in the beginning, let's set some expectations. Here's some of the things I'm after. What are you after? Hey, if I give you a call, will you call me back? All these little tiny things that make all the difference in building relationship with someone and then keeping to your word and then coming back and telling people.

(20:22):

Let me share with you something at the end of a cold call where we set a meeting. At the very end of it, takes about five or six seconds, "Hey Corey, any reason why you wouldn't make it to this meeting?" "No it's on my calendar. I'm good to go. We're good to go. Shawn, I appreciate that." "Let's just say this, in the off chance that you don't make it, can you and I agree that we'll work to reschedule it right away? That way you won't have to get a restraining order because I'm going to follow up with you." You go, "Yeah, you bet." But I'm going to use that again. I'm going to use that in my language later on when you don't show up or something does happen because, and I'm going to be true to my word and I'm going to remind you, "Hey, we agreed that we'd reschedule this thing. Let's get it done." And setting this expectation around, let's do this together or not at all.

(21:02):

Or, yeah, I shared with you earlier today, one more thought on my calendar and on my about section in LinkedIn, [inaudible 00:21:07] says, "Hey, let's get together and see what we can, if we like each other well enough to work together, shake something out of the trees. If not, we'll shake hands and go our separate ways." That's my intro call because I want to find out is there something here and let's both work on it together. Those are some of my thoughts. It sets the stage for a long term.

Corey Frank (21:24):

Just as you went into character there and delivered that message about, "Can we agree to work together and find a way to get this back on the calendar if something does get in the way?" I can imagine, Henry, that your high-stakes world of medical real estate properties, these aren't six-figure opportunities. These are seven, eight-figure deals going on here. So credibility, certainty has to win the day. You're dealing with a very competitive product. You mentioned to me a few years ago, I think. I mean, you're dealing with just what's left. It's not even the alpha of a lot of these deals. And so tone implying, maybe uncertainty, tone implying that maybe you're not the best person for this role. You're a commodity, maybe there's some commission breath, that makes a difference in overall how much it makes.

(22:16):

So how do you deal with, how do you balance the fact that you try to get that to be authentic, but you also not necessarily have to be the drill instructor here, as we heard from Shawn, but you do have to be in a position of authority to say, "Listen, your money's safe with me. I'm not going to put your money to sleep. I know what I'm doing. I know these properties. I've already done the vetting." How do you balance that in your, especially in your world?

Henry Wojdyla (22:39):

It's a good question, and I don't know that I have an immediate just pat answer for you. There's no question, tonality is a piece of it. I think asking, I'd say framing the questions correctly is a lot of it. And that framing is a combination in my world of it is tonality. I think it's using certain nomenclature correctly. I think it's also, I will tell you the big thing tonality wise is I would say there's a lot of, there's this phrase, "There's riches in the niches." And we have taken that approach at a high level for the business model. But is it a discovery call? But I think there's a lot of riches in silence and the ability to basically shut up after asking a question and being comfortable with sometimes some very pregnant pauses. Because to your point, Corey, and I know I'm meandering a little bit in answering it, but we're dealing typically with eight figure or more size transactions, the questions that surround those in terms of where does this asset sit in your overall thesis? Where is this from a harvesting and recycling of capital perspective?

(23:45):

These are big questions. And even for people that are busy trafficking in these type of assets in a day in day out basis. If we're really getting into true discovery and they're really being contemplative about what they're providing you in terms of feedback and answers, they're going to need a few seconds themselves to think about that. So I think this is another example of getting out of the way at almost at a tactical level, which is just being quiet. I think that actually also instills some credibility because you're not trying to fill the gaps. You're not uncomfortable with the silence. I think that in and of itself provides maybe a tactical level benefit, but I think the more strategic benefit is you're hopefully actually getting better quality responses from the prospect.

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(24:52):

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