431. Religion’s Hand in the Invention of Politics with Anna Maria Grzymala-Busse

unSILOed with Greg LaBlanc

Historical research on the development of states and political systems typically focuses on the role of war or economic class, but what about the influence of religion?

Anna Maria Grzymala-Busse is a political science professor at Stanford University. Her books, Sacred Foundations: The Religious and Medieval Roots of the European State and Nations under God: How Churches Use Moral Authority to Influence Policy emphasize the role religious institutions have played in shaping politics.

She and Greg discuss how religious authorities wielded power over emperors and kings, the role religion played in the creation of taxes, and how religion continues to influence politics in the modern world.

*unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.*

Episode Quotes:

Is there something different about the way religion and politics relate in America?

40:40: The United States is different. It's a religious marketplace, which means that people can move within churches without actually leaving religion. Or they can even sort of continue to view themselves as religious, even when they don't attend churches. And in this religious marketplace, there are all kinds of individual religious leaders. There's no one central authority that speaks for religion in the United States, but there are multiple leaders, all of whom are trying to maximize their market share, right? And when they do so, you know some will claim they're conservative Christians, some will claim they're more liberal ones, and what you see basically is a lot of churn, where a lot of people move between, to some extent, Christian Catholic congregations rather than leave religion altogether. In a monopoly, if you're disgusted with religion or disappointed with your religious leader, you don't have that choice, right? You're in or out. In the United States, you just move to a different church that you find more acceptable and attractive. And I think that's part of the reason why there's so much more resilience in the United States.

Do contemporary social scientists sometimes fail to appreciate the impact of ideas, moral arguments, and religious beliefs?

44:11: I do think that we, as disciplines, tend to overlook religion because it's so unfamiliar. It's such weird territory. For many people, the idea that you can believe in God and for that to mean something is just so foreign. But I think we ought to remember that, for the vast majority of people on this planet, both now and then, this was actually really important. And if it's that important, it probably shapes how they think about politics and what they expect from politics, and we ought to include that.

What did Anna learn from doing both contemporary and historical work?

42:26: Doing both contemporary and historical work has taught me that humanity has changed very little. We know everything; the things that we tend to think of as shibboleths are now contested, much as they were back then. People have petty concerns, public opinion matters, and the sort of pettiness and unintended consequences and unanticipated consequences of decisions can make all the difference. And fundamentally, people were no better or worse than they are today. They were just as prone to violence. They were just as prone to love. They were just as prone to seeking justice and fairness. They just thought about them in different terms.

The power to deliver salvation shaped history

42:46: The ability to deliver salvation, the ability to basically be able to promise people that if you do these things, you can have life eternal, and if you don't do them, we have the power to withhold our own salvation. This sort of path to salvation from you is an enormous authority that I think mattered a great deal.

Show Links:

Recommended Resources:

• Charles Tilly
• Contractarianism
• Timur Kuran

Guest Profile:

• Faculty Profile at Stanford University
• Professional Website

Her Work:

• Sacred Foundations: The Religious and Medieval Roots of the European State
• Nations under God: How Churches Use Moral Authority to Influence Policy