A podcast about high level climbing. How to go from Good to Great. Hosted by Joshua Horsley.
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3for5 is a weekly, pop-culture based podcast. Each week, Bryan Rogers, LeighAnn Pedra and Mark Baker pick a topic and create a top five list, then discuss, debate and joke about it.
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#123 Adam Shahar — The Best Training For Climbing, 1-Arm Pogo’s, IFSC Athlete of the Week, Ego Snacks, and Letting Go of Negative Thoughts
1:54:40
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Adam Shahar is the name that keeps coming up when I ask who is an up and coming star. At 18 he had a breakout year where he won bouldering nationals, climbed V15 in a few sessions while he was on the road doing WC’s, and then became IFSC’s Athlete of the Week when he narrowly missed finals with a 7th place finish at the Prague WC. He also had perha…
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#122 Hamish McArthur — His Surprising Path To Olympic Success, The Right Kind of Motivation, BTS at Paris 2024, Advice To Young Hamish, and Handling Danger and Death
1:45:25
1:45:25
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If you watched the Paris Olympics then you remember Hamish McArthur’s stand out performance to secure an incredible 5th place finish. Hamish had already stood atop World Cup podiums and won Youth Worlds, but his Olympic showing was a clear level up. In this episode Hamish shares what changed for him in the year leading up to the Olympics and how it…
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#121 Matt Fultz — BIG MOVES small crimps, Long Term Projecting, Video Analysis, Hardest Board Climbs, Throwing Away His Scale, and How He Coaches on OTG
1:51:26
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You’ve heard of Matt Fultz, but you may not realize just how amazing Matt is. He’s climbed eight V16’s. 8. Eight! By the way, two of them are rarely repeated and recognized as some of the hardest in the world (Hypnotized Minds and Big Z). He’s FA’d 7 climbs V15 and up, including 2 V15’s in one day!! We’re pretty sure that’s a world’s first, but who…
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#120 Alvaro Rangel — Coaching Team USA at the Olympics, Not Saying ‘Strong’, The Most Important Skill, Making Finals vs Semi’s, Case Studies, and The Future of Comp Climbing
2:33:21
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Alvaro Rangel, Al, is back on the podcast after 2+ years! Al was one of the first guests and one of the best. The last podcast we did was incredible, but somehow Al managed to top it with today’s episode. He is the founder and head coach of Team Class 5 in San Diego, CA. Al is also part of the Team USA coaching staff and supports the team at World …
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#119 Melina Costanza — Elite Mental Training and Performance, Look Good Feel Good Play Good, Getting Hooked on The Outdoors, and The Nuances of Eating As a Top Athlete
2:23:34
2:23:34
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Melina Costanza is an 8x US National Champion. Sometimes as a youth, sometimes as a collegiate, sometimes in Open, sometimes in bouldering, sometimes in lead, sometimes both. Yes, last year at Open Nationals (2023) she won both Bouldering and Lead. She is set to compete in the 2024 Open Nationals coming up in a week, so after you listen to this pod…
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#118 Ward Byrum — Setting Climbs For Tens of Thousands of Climbers, What Makes A Climb Good, Indoor vs Outdoor Grades, and What A ‘Testpiece’ is at Movement Gyms
2:20:27
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Ward Byrum is the Director of Routesetting for all Movement gyms in the East Region. Yes, that Movement. The biggest climbing gym chain in America and probably the world. That means that Ward and his team decide what the climbing will be like for thousands of climbers. Scratch that, ten’s of thousands of climbers. It might even be hundreds of thous…
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#117 Tom Randall — How Fit Climbers Get Strong and Strong Climbers Get Fit, Founding Lattice Training and How It’s Evolved, Why Recovery On Route Is So Important, and What Separates the Good from the Great ...
2:15:58
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Tom Randall is an iconic climber and founder. You might know him as one of the Wide Boyz, as one of the founders of Lattice Training, as a high level coach, or for his 5.14 Trad FA’s or even his FA of the worlds hardest crack boulder, aptly named “The Kraken” [V13]. Ya, Tom’s done it all, and has helped the best in the world do it even better. In t…
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#116 David Fitzgerald — A Big Zeason [V16], Lucid Dreaming [V15+], His Breakthrough On How To Approach Hard Projects, Creating Hits with Highpoint Productions, and Editing 101
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David Fitzgerald is back after an absolutely incredible season. Dave was previously on for Testpiece Episode #55, a total fan favorite. Last season Dave had a list of climbs in different styles to tackle. Tierrany, a V14 endurance bloc in Yosemite. Equanimity, a V15 ultra tech testpiece in Tahoe. Lucid Dreaming, the V15+ straight forward power prob…
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#115 Garrett Gregor — Olympic Head Routesetter, BTS of Elite Competitive Setting, Grades of the Olympic Climbs, and Do Setters Control the Outcome?
2:26:33
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2:26:33
Garrett Gregor was the head routesetter for the Paris Olympics boulders! That’s all you need to know. Just stop reading this description and start listening now. Garrett is also an accomplished competitor, placing as high as 4th at Nationals, an experienced coach at the legendary Team ABC, and did we mention he’s an elite routesetter?! IFSC Level 5…
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#114 Tyler Nelson — How Personal Morphology Affects Climbing Performance, Specificity, Unlevel Edges, Talon Grip, and Tim Gabbett’s Paradox
2:13:19
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Dr. Tyler Nelson is the founder of Camp 4 Human Performance, a company focused on bringing the principles of sport science to climbing. Tyler is focused on being a cutting edge resource for training and rehabilitation of climbers. This means he is always knee deep in research papers from all sorts of sports and asking how we might apply those lesso…
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#113 Kevin Brown — Literally Everything Your Ever Wanted To Know About Chalk, Founding Friction Labs, Skin Farming, and How To Make Sure You Are Getting The Best Friction On Holds
1:25:20
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This is the episode to learn everything about one of, if not the, most important parts of our climbing kit — chalk! The real topic here is how to maximize friction between your hands and the holds, which is crucial for sending your hardest. Kevin Brown joins the pod and goes deep on the science of how to get the best friction on holds. He talks abo…
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#112 Paris 2024 Olympics — Professional Climber and Coach Tim Kang on The Results, The Routesetting, The Grades, and The Future of Competitions
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Professional climber, coach, routesetter, and frequent Testpiece podcast guest, Tim Kang, is on the pod this week to share his thoughts about the Paris 2024 Olympics. Tim may be best known for his highball ascents that culminated in the film Focus, but Tim is also a seasoned competition climber with multiple World Cups under his belt. Tim loves com…
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#111 Tom O’Halloran — How To Do Hard Moves, Using Boards To Climb Better Outside, Toes Knees Hips, Taping Correctly, and What The Olympics Are Like
2:23:48
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Tom O’Halloran is arguably the best climber in Australia. He’s an Olympian, he’s climbed 15a and v14, and done FA’s nearly up to those grades as well. But the reason we wanted to have him on the podcast is because of the amazing YouTube content he puts out. He dives into the nuances of hard climbing in a way that actually helps people climb hard. T…
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#110 Ethan Salvo — Lessons From Climbing The Hardest Climb in Squamish [TWICE?!], Internal Vs External Motivations, and Transcending Grades
1:48:11
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Ethan Salvo is back on the podcast! Ethan's first episode (linked here) was a fan favorite so when Josh visited Squamish for a few days they met up do an impromptu live/in-person recording. Since the last recording, Ethan has climbed arguably the hardest climb in Squamish, The Singularity. The experience he had on it was fascinating and made him qu…
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#109 Noah & Benn Wheeler — The World’s Hardest Campus Move, Most Difficult Board Climbs, FA’ing V12 On 1st Day Outdoors, and How This Generation Sees The Future
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Noah Wheeler and Benn Wheeler represent the next generation of climbers. At 21 and 19, they are some of the strongest board climbers in the world and their styles reflect that. They also are bring a unique point of view to the world of climbing content with their YouTube channel, Wheel Rock. These brothers have climbed up to V16 outdoors, FA’d up V…
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#108 AJ [Alex Johnson] — 20 Years At The Top, The Evolution Of Climbing, Coaching Top Athletes, Climbing Drills, and Returning From A Major Injury
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AJ has been competing at the highest level for decades. She has won multiple Bouldering World Cups and she climbs just as hard outdoors with her iconic send of The Swarm (v13/14) in Bishop which was recently featured in Reel Rock. AJ also coaches some of the top up and coming Youth Athletes (one of her athletes recently won Nationals), through her …
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#107 Drew Ruana — Thinking Long Term, Grading The Hardest Blocs, Working Weaknesses, 3 Common Plateaus and How to Get Through Them
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Drew Ruana is one of the strongest boulders in the world. Period. He over a hundred V14+ sends, and lots of then are V16. While some other climbers may have that amount of blocs under their belt, no one has accumulated this many in such a short time. Drew goes into his infamous “Send Colorado” journey, which is his goal to send all V14 and up bould…
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#106 Felipe Camargo — An Unlikely Path To The Top, Finding Mentors, Training Hard By Yourself, Establishing Next Level Routes in Brazil, and Giving Back
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Felipe Camargo is one of the top climbers in our sport with sends up to 9b and V15. That’s impressive… But what’s more impressive is that he began climbing Brazil where there was no professional climbers, no routes past 8b+, and no modern training facilities. Felipe managed to send the iconic 50m 9a+ Papichulo by mainly training on a 3x3m spray wal…
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#105 Tim Kang — Going All In, The Most Important Moments for Growth, Embracing What Others Won’t, and The Difference Between Good and Great
2:07:50
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2:07:50
Tim Kang is a frequent guest on the podcast, but now you get to hear him do a more typical interview. Tim is a professional climber and coach that has competed at the World Cup level, won a Psicobloc competition, climbed v14 and 5.14d, but he is best known for his daring sends of the wildest highballs in Bishop which culminated in the popular film …
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#104 Greg Loh — Bouldering Pioneer, World’s Best Spotter, Belief Over Everything, Epic Midnight Lightning Story, Designing The 5.10 Dragons, and What Makes A Climber GREAT
2:20:47
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Greg Loh was one of the strongest boulders in the world during the mid 90’s and early 00’s. He traveled all over the world putting up FA’s of V13+ and climbing with the best. He competed in WC’s, the X-Games, and even won Nationals twice for speed climbing. He is known for being one of the first people who truly embraced bouldering as a discipline …
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#103 T&J — The Opposite Of Flow, Woods and Wheelers, Keeping Your Feet On, and Respect Every Climb[er]
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Entitlement is the opposite of flow and perhaps the most damaging frame to have over the long term in your climbing. This can come from training, previous sends, or comp placement. Hear stories about Daniel Woods and other pro-climbers who have avoided this frame. And hear from Tim Kang and Josh Horsley about how they coach others and themselves to…
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#102 The Tension Crew — Ultimate Board Climbing Deep Dive, History of Boards, Best Board Practices, Training on Boards, The Future of Boards, and Undeniable Vibes
2:26:24
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We love board climbing. And if you do too, or even if you are just board curious, this episode it for you. The history of boards, board training, board ethics, board best practices, the future of boards. BOARDS!! This was a special in person recording in Colorado with part of the Tension Climbing crew (Will Anglin, Michael Rosato, and Quinn Spadafo…
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#101 Dave Burleson — How To Be A Pro Climber, What Pro’s Actually Earn, The Tension Between Passion And Professionalism, and Contract Negotiation 101
2:31:11
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Dave Burleson is one of the top agents for professional climbers. He's part of Reppa Athlete Managment that represents athletes like Sean Bailey, Nathaniel Coleman, Nina Williams, Jesse Grupper… the list goes on, but all of them have been on the podcast so we put them here first! Before being an agent, Dave worked at the iconic brands Petzl and The…
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#100 T&J — The Simple Path To Being Great, The Real Role Of Strength, Dealing With Tweaky Moves, Moonboard 2024, Amazing Media Drops, and Skin Farming
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Episode #100!!!! Thank you all for the support. What a journey it’s been. This episode was an absolute banger that encapsulates a lot of the Testpiece message. Tim and Josh break down the ‘Simple’ path that the best climbers follow to being great. And then they detail the appropriate role that strength plays in this path. They also go over the late…
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#99 Nina Williams — Off Route While Free Soloing, The Ultimate Confidence, Being a Professional on Instagram, and The Medium Is The Message
1:49:54
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Nina Williams pushes the limits in every discipline of climbing there is… comps, bouldering, highball bouldering, big wall, sport climbing, and even free soloing. In this episode she takes us through a harrowing experience she had while free soloing the Casual Route of the Diamond, a multi pitch 5.10. Nina ended up off route during the climb and th…
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#98 T&J — Your Heroes Are Human, 2 Traits The BEST Climbers Have, Honnold Says The Quiet Thing Out Loud, and Tim Tells Josh His Biggest Mistake
1:56:05
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Tim Kang was just in SLC for the World Cup and NACS. He got to watch and session with some of the best climbers in the world. Hear from Tim what his major takeaways were that can help you too. SHOW NOTES: Honnold’s Comments About Competitions and $ Petzl Roc Trip James-Caro Wedding Present Support the show Support us on Patreon: HERE Visit our podc…
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#97 Davin Bagdonas — Alpine Fusion, Grizzly Bears, Developing 1000’s of Climbs World Wide, Chasing The Dragon, and The Call To Adventure
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Davin Bagdonas has developed 1000’s of climbs all over the world. Elite climbers, fellow adventurers, and previous podcast guests, like Jimmy Webb, Jamie Emerson, Roman Yalowitz, Eric Jerome call up Davin when they want to go on a wild adventure to try to find the best boulders in the world. Davin takes us on a trip around the world to places fraug…
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#96 T&J — Battling Mid-Send Doubts, Incredibly Hard Sends, New Shoe Tech, Update Your System By Shutting Up, Don’t Talk Sh!t, and Josh Talk’s Sh!t
1:58:25
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You’re midway through a redpoint burn and you’re tired. There’s a bunch of moves to go and you tell yourself that you’re so tired right now there’s no way you’ll ever send. But the truth is, you have no idea how far you will get or if the send is actually right there for the taking. You can’t trust your feelings! Tim and Josh tackle the problem of …
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#95 Palmer Larsen — The Master Coach, Adaptability and Autonomy, Deliberate Practice, Style Then Process, What’s Wrong In Coaching Today, and Olympic 2024 Predictions
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Palmer Larsen is one of the top coaches in the country. This podcast has soooooooooo many helpful tips and frameworks to get you to the next level. DO NOT MISS his description of how to foster an environment for long term success via deliberate practice @ ~1:28! He is the head coach of Momentum Climbing Team, in SLC, one of the top climbing teams i…
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#94 T&J — How To Approach EVERY Climb, New Era Of Climbing Media, Double Clutching Outside, New Patreon Offering, Warm-Up Projects, Un-Campusing and Why Trying Hard Isn’t Enough
1:52:11
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What is the best way to approach a climb? It’s a simple question that may be one of the most important things to ask yourself before you pull on each time, but it’s never talked about. Tim Kang, professional climber and coach, shares the fundamental strategy needed to get your best performance each time. Announcement!! $5 Patron’s now have access t…
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#93 Allison Vest — THE STRONGEST FINGERS IN THE WORLD, Hangboarding Deep Dive, Comps Vs Outdoors, LeBron James’ Tip to Send V14, Not Lying to Yourself, Creating FLOAT and Her Secret Training PDF (only ...
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Allison Vest has THE STRONGEST FINGERS IN THE WORLD (according to the internet), and she is finally releasing her secret training plan to us! It’s only $9.99, and the best part is Testpiece listeners get 20% off for a limited time! Get it here NOW! 🥸 Allison shares about what it’s like to climb with the extremely strong fingers and why that’s impor…
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#92 T&J — Climbing At Your Limit, Make It Right USAC, Rants Continue, Gym Field Trips, and The Simplest Effective Training Routine
1:48:03
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1:48:03
Tim Kang and Josh Horsley explore how often to have limit sessions. What limit sessions really mean. And what non-limit sessions look like. They also cover the latest news, give important PSAs, Pro-Tips, and of course there is a rant. There’s always at least one rant. SHOW NOTES: GoFundme for Adriene Felipe Hoo Beastmaking Book Support the show Sup…
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#91 Jimmy Webb — Adventure and Development, How Climbers Go From Good To Great, Southern Style, World’s Greatest Flasher, The New Generation, and The Hardest Moves In The World
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That's right ladies and gentlemen -- Jimmy Webb! Jimmy is one of the best climbers our sport has ever scene, and one of the humblest and kindest climbers as well. Please enjoy this wide ranging but always fantastic chat with Jimmy Webb. Support the show Support us on Patreon: HERE Visit our podcast page: HERE Sign-up with one of our coaches: HERE F…
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#90 T&J — “Strength Forgets”, The Process SA, Team Trials Trouble, Binding Your Feet, Moonboard Rant, and Get Injured To Get Better Technique?!
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The topics are in the title! A big focus on what Tim is “re-learning” as he comes back from his serious knee injury. SHOW NOTES: Team Trials Instagram Post by Ryan Paul Robinson on Hueco Rock Rodeo Nathaniel Flashing Scarface Support the show Support us on Patreon: HERE Visit our podcast page: HERE Sign-up with one of our coaches: HERE Follow us on…
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#89 Martin Keller — 8C+ at 45+, How To Gain Limit Strength, How To Project, Naysayers, Avoiding Injury, and The Big Difference Between Indoors and Outdoors
2:30:21
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Martin Keller is one of the few people to boulder 8C+ / V16... But what's really incredible is he just did it right before he turned 46 years old! Martin is an incredible climber, coach, and teacher. In this episode he shares: How to gain limit strength, rather than just getting tired. The best way to project climbs (he's famous for his decade plus…
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#88 T&J — Busting Plateau’s, How To Reclaim A Peak, Get Your Own Felipe [Hoo], ROTSW Still V17, and Sending The MoonBoard Proj
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Tim’s back at it and with a big smile. Hear how he’s been returning to his peak strength after injury. Tim also talks about how he coaches clients through plateaus. Big shout outs to the crews that make life special for Tim and Josh and what they did to help them be their best. Bosi repeats ROTSW, and just about every other hard thing in the world.…
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#87 Matty Hong — Big Falls & Big Fish [9a 50m DWS], Photography 101, What Makes Sharma Special and Lessons From Biographie [World’s First 9a+]
1:52:31
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Matty Hong takes us to Mallorca where he snagged the second ascent of Big Fish. A 9a deep water solo that culminates in a dyno at ~20m / 60ft! Matty was out there filming for the latest Reel Rock climbing with the legend Chris Sharma. Since he is often the guy behind the camera we asked him to share some tips for any aspiring climbing film makers a…
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#86 T&J — PED’s, Breaking Down A Crux, Climbing Like A 6 Year-Old Girl, Injury Prevention, and BTS On A Moonboard Session
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Drugs, cruxes, moonboarding, injuries, making climbs your b*tch... This one's got it all! Tune in for tons of pro-tips that will help you climb better today, and set yourself up for the long term success that we all are striving for. SHOW NOTES: 2017 V8 / 7B+ on Moonboard 2016 Set Podcast #33 with Andy Tollefson Support the show Support us on Patre…
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#85 Keenan Takahashi — Higher Harder Better, ANTIGRAV, The Best Lines In The World, Mentorship, Manifesting More, and The Mustache Turns 10
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The man, the myth, the Mustache — Keenan Takahashi! Keenan shares his unique approach to climbing. He seeks out the best lines in the world and then uses that as fuel to transform his body and mind so that he is able to climb them. Keenan also has created one of the coolest new brands in climbing, ANTIGRAV, that embodies his psyche and ethos for cl…
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#84 T&J — Hard Hard, New New, Sessioning With The BEST, USAC Controversy, and Switching To Moonboard 2024
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2024 is off the a bang with incredibly hard bouldering FA’s happening non-stop. Is this because USAC caused one of the strongest crews in the world to stop training for the Olympics and start crushing rock again? Hear more from Tim about what a session is like when multiple V16 climbers get together to try the hardest boulders in the world. Support…
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#83 Sean Bailey — Devilution FA [~V16], Japan’s Gym Scene, The Future of Hard Sport Climbing, Spearheading USA’s Return to WC’s, Projecting in Bouldering vs Sport, and BTS of Making It As a Pro
1:51:12
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Sean Bailey came on Testpiece and shared his decades of experience from sending and competing at the absolute top of the sport. Sean truly is one of the best climbers in the world right now. Sean recently FA’d the low start to Evilution [“Devilution”] which was a long standing sought after project that clocks in around V16 and is now one of the har…
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#82 T&J — Negative Thoughts -> Words -> Actions, Type 2 Fun, Achieving Your Potential, Grades vs Belts, and ‘Make Climbing Dangerous Again’
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Tim shares a common problem that holds people back that he sees in even some of the top athletes he coaches. They jokingly call it "Vomit Mouth". Learn about what this is and how you can make sure to avoid it in your sessions. SHOW NOTES: Noah Wheeler on Sleepwalker Support the show Support us on Patreon: HERE Visit our podcast page: HERE Sign-up w…
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#81 Carlo Traversi — The Dark Side V16 FA, Using Wet Chalk, Pushing Not Pulling, The Grade Debate, and What He Learned From Yosemite Testpiece’s
2:15:44
2:15:44
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2:15:44
Carlo Traversi is back to tell us about his recent FA of The Dark Side V16 (suggested grade) in Yosemite. Josh thinks this FA will go down in the history books as THE testpiece of our generation in Yosemite bouldering. Tune in and see what you think. Carlo explains the incredible tactics he had to employ to get this FA done. It was absolutely mindb…
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#80: T&J — Always Be Hungry, Good Sessions Only, Stop Lying, You Suck, Fueled by Failure, and Tim Joins A Normie Gym
1:39:48
1:39:48
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1:39:48
Happy New Year, my dude. Tim and Josh get meta about how to have the best 2024 possible by asking the question — why can’t all sessions be good ones? SHOW NOTES: Mastery by Robert Greene Atomic Habits by James Clear Support the show Support us on Patreon: HERE Visit our podcast page: HERE Sign-up with one of our coaches: HERE Follow us on Instagram…
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#79: West Coast Pimps — Jeremy Meigs and Joel Ruscher, Sharma’s Mentor, The Origin’s of Try Hard, Early Days in Hueco and Bishop, and Lessons From Decades of High Level Bouldering
2:08:28
2:08:28
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2:08:28
Jeremy Meigs and Joel Ruscher are West Coast bouldering OG’s. They started climbing 3 decades ago and were part of the birth of modern HARD bouldering. Tune in to hear about the early days of bouldering and how it set the tone for what’s going on today. There’s tons of can’t miss stories about young Chris Sharma and what Hueco, Bishop, and Font wer…
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#78: T&J — Baby Rattlesnakes, F*CK! Tim Got Injured, The Demonstration of Strength, Kids Vs Adults, and Boarding As A Minor
2:03:27
2:03:27
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2:03:27
F*CK! Tim busted his knee. Not the best way to spend the holidays... The main topic for this episode is what Kids do better than Adults, and what Adults do better than Kids. Tim and Josh also talk about the latest ascents of two previous Testpiece Guests -- Defying Gravity by Nathaniel Coleman, and Sleepwalker by Zach Galla. This leads into a discu…
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#77: Zach Galla — Raw Power, The Truth Behind WC Comps, The Olympic Grind, Leaving a Legacy, and The Role of Boards
1:52:18
1:52:18
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1:52:18
Zach Galla has been ticking off some of the hardest boulders in America while simultaneously competing at the highest level. He’s always vying for the podium in any US competition and has spent time on the World Cup circuit as well. Zach goes deep on this podcast about what it’s really like to compete at these high level comps. What the setting is …
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#76: T&J — How Technical is Board Climbing? Committing vs Learning, Being the Conductor, Lead Domino, and One Arm Pull-Ups
2:13:11
2:13:11
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Why do we call board climbing “not technical”? What does this really mean? Board climbing wasn’t the planned topic of the day, but once Tim and Josh get talking about boards they have a hard time stopping! Then Tim and Josh talk about being the Conductor of your climbing, and how/when to employ two major mindsets during your sessions. SHOW NOTES: S…
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#75: Jesse Grupper — Neck Tats, Paris 2024, Big Goals Little Steps, Mega-Volume, Sport Climbing Tips, Cyborgs and Optimism as a Tool
1:50:27
1:50:27
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1:50:27
Jesse Grupper recently punched his ticket to Paris 2024 as part of the men’s USA Olympic team! This is on top of his already incredible last few years with multiple gold medal wins at the WC, an incredible flash of Livin’ Astro (14c), AND his flash of Pure Imagination (14c) just the day before recording! Jesse is on a tear at comps, outdoors, on le…
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#74: T&J — Board Wars, Board Lords, Boards Adored, Spray vs Standardized, Wood vs Plastic, Bad Apps, Flo Flows Floatin, and If There Could Only Be ONE
2:23:43
2:23:43
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2:23:43
Which board is best?! Tim and Josh disagree... but not for the reason you might expect. Spray Wall or Standardized Wall? Wood holds or plastic? What angle? Tim and Josh love board climbing and we know you do too. They dive into the nuances of what makes a board great, and maybe more importantly, who that board is great for. SHOW NOTES: Spraywall vs…
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