306: 10th Anniversary Special!

IN TRANSIT with Sundae Bean

Legacy. Such a heavy word to hold in your hand. But what does it actually mean? At its core, legacy is creating something that exists independently of you. And to do that, there comes a moment where – as a leader – you have to “trust.”

Leaders are notorious firestarters. They light the spark and then tirelessly tend to the coals. But the tricky part comes next. And a legacy-builder knows when to train and trust another to care for your precious coals. You shift into being the leader beside the leader, breaking free to go and blaze a new fire somewhere else.

Welcome to an extra special episode to celebrate an extraordinary milestone. This week, sundaebean.com turns TEN, and to help us celebrate this monumental anniversary, I’ve brought in a familiar friend: Naomi Hattaway.

An expert in proactive legacy design, Naomi has shared her remarkable personal and professional wisdom with us on IN TRANSIT three times. Today, Naomi will interview me, teasing out reflections about my decade gone by and helping me etch a glimpse into what comes next.

Floating high from gratitude, I can’t let this go unsaid or get buried in the content. THANK YOU, from the bottom of my heart to my clients, coaches, collaborators, and listeners.

You built who I am today because you gave me permission to work with you and allowed me inside your lives to share my messages. I acutely appreciate that this is an occasion that very few businesses get to commemorate, and it’s an achievement that I dedicate – in its entirety – to YOU.

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

• The grief of letting go
• Aim to cause a ripple effect vs. a viral spike
• Starting in the middle of your transformation
• When your heart delivers before you even ask
• The isolation of entrepreneurship
• The “Worthy Work” notebook

Listen to the Full Episode:

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Get the nourishment you need from me 24/7/365 through Adapt & Succeed. My all-in-one program is ready to serve you a full buffet of transformation fuel and comfort food, and I’m sitting at the bar, waiting for you.

• Sundae’s Website
• Sundae’s Facebook Business Page – Sundae Schneider-Bean LLC
• Sundae Bean – YouTube
• Adapt and Succeed
• IN TRANSIT Hub
• Global Coach Coalition
• Year of Transformation
• IN TRANSIT Hub Community
• IN TRANSIT YouTube Channel
• Naomi Hattaway

Catch These Podcasts / Articles:

• Legacy by Design with Naomi Hattaway

We’re delighted to be in the Top 5 of the global Best 30 Expat Podcasts!

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Full Episode Transcript:

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Hello, it is 10 a.m. in New York, 5 p.m. in Johannesburg, and 10 p.m. in Bangkok. Welcome to IN TRANSIT with Sundae Bean. I’m an intercultural strategist, transformation facilitator, and solution-oriented coach. And I am on a mission to help you adapt and succeed through ANY life transition.

Now, today is a huge day because I am inviting you to celebrate with me 10 years in business. I started my company back in June 2013, and I had no idea what was ahead. In today’s episode, I wanted to take a moment to do two things that are important to me. The first is to celebrate and the second is to reflect on where I am in the process of my own ambitious transformation, and that of my company and share the learnings with you.

So, I’m so excited. And to celebrate today and to make this episode extra special, I have invited Naomi Hattaway. You might recognize her from episode 297 Legacy by Design. Naomi Hattaway has recently launched Leaving Well Consulting a practice for individuals and organizations and board of directors who are in periods of transition, right? Sound familiar? She helps organizations be purposeful about the way they transfer knowledge and transition. She also creates stability for the stayers and help support those that are leaving. This woman has been a friend and contact about transitions and transformation for years. So I’m so happy to be joined by her today.

Now, let me tell you, I asked her to join me, I knew what my objectives were. I wanted to celebrate and wanted to share some updates that I haven’t really shared publicly and what happened is right before we hopped on the call. I just had this huge wave of emotion come up and it was just waiting to come out right when we started. And I think what that means is that there is one, a lot to process after 10 years. But also, when you’re making a shift, you’re making a transition, there’s a lot of emotions that are maybe not processed things that you’re letting go of and things that you were looking forward toward.

So here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to bring you in on that conversation. It is raw, it is emotional, it is joyful. And there were some “stop the record” moments of realization for me. This episode is dedicated deep deep down from my heart, to my clients to my coaches, to my listeners who have been with me at any point during this journey of the last 10 years. I want to say THANK YOU. Because YOU have built who I am today through your permission to work with you. Through your permission to allow me to come into your life and share my messages, and listen back on what you’re learning from it. So, thank you very much, and take a look at what happened next.

All right, so I had this really great idea that I was gonna bring on Naomi Hattaway to celebrate my 10th business birthday, and that is all exciting. But I am already feeling emotional, I seriously have tears in my eyes and I do not understand what’s going on. So this is exactly why Naomi is here.

Because what we’re going to do is give you a glimpse of how my life has been in transition, how my business has been transition. And I want you to see really how this is amazing and wonderful and I’m so grateful, and how it’s hard. And so, you’re getting a sneak peek at it like live as I get a sneak peek of it because we got on the call and all of a sudden, I was just like, I don’t know why I’m feeling about you.

So welcome, Naomi! I’ll let you do your thing and you just lead me through this.

Naomi: Yeah, well first of all, celebrating is so exciting. I’m so proud of you. As you celebrate 10 years in business, you have gone through around over under all the things. So, I first just want to celebrate with you about 10 years, it’s so incredible.

So, it’s interesting that you were talking about how you had this emotional response, and then you’re like, “Wait, what’s happening?” And we had already talked about this a little bit before, as we were prepping, but this card I pulled right before we got on. And it says, “Be real about where you’re at.” And I think that is so important in the process of leaving well, and inside of transitions. I know that when I’ve moved, I get the spreadsheets out and I get all ready because I can do this, I’ve done this. before. I know how to organize, I know how to structure. And then if I’m not real about where I’m at I don’t process the emotion. So I want to first commend you for also being willing to sit with the emotions.

Okay, so transition is hard and I think one of the things that when I work with folks on leaving well is that we don’t name the emotion. So I’d be curious if you’re willing to dive in to just think through and I’ve got this handy little chart that we can share with folks listening about emotions, and I’ll just hold it up. I don’t know. Is that backwards? I could barely. Okay, that’s good enough right now.

So, the concept is that a lot of times we go into the middle, Joy, fear, sad, but there’s so many emotions underneath. So, when you think about your transition that you’re going through personally and transitions with business, what two or three come up?

Sundae: Oh, that’s a great question. So there is a sense of satisfaction that feels to be very grounded in the center of it. There’s satisfaction in what I’ve been able to do in the last 10 years now and there’s satisfaction in the shift that I’m making right now. So it’s not joy it’s some other – but it’s like this grounded word. It feels solid.

There is another feeling that is there and then on the positive side is gratitude. I’m so grateful for the journey that I have behind me and the one I have ahead. And those are some of the neutral to positive emotions that are there. I think some of the negative emotions or the wobblier ones.

I am really struggling with letting go of a life that I lived for a decade and that is at the same time I’m satisfied with what I’ve done, and I’m actively choosing to do what I’m doing now, and I actively am happy to go toward it. And it still means there’s a grief around letting go. Like an old identity, an old purpose. And, it doesn’t mean that letting go sounds like releasing and never having any of the strings at your fingertips again. And I don’t think that’s quite that clear cut. I think it’s more of like, letting go of a portion of that. But what do they say? There’s an expression about, if you open up your hands then they are free to catch something new.

So I am not very good at not knowing. Someone who’s solution-oriented, someone who is a strategist. I like to have control over my environment, a very active agent. That’s everything that I teach. And I also know that some of the best things in my whole life that have happened are things I didn’t expect, and things that I didn’t plan. So surrender would be the other thing that’s happening right now. Not my favorite word.

Is that an emotion? I think it’s a state of being.

Naomi: I mean, yes. And some of the things that I was writing down as you were talking about was first, around satisfaction, I think it goes so hand in hand with being seen. And so that part of it goes back to the celebration and being able to celebrate with your community, with the folks that have been along this ride with you. They’ve seen your work, you’ve seen their work, and you’ve been all together in this, and I think there’s some tenderness – and some fragility that then comes then like, “Well, what if that goes away?”

Sundae: Yes. Yes. And you know this about me there’s like this thing I have about abandonment. If I change, if I shift because I care so much about my community and my people, I worry about abandoning the people that I care about. And I was even stressed when I changed the name of my podcast from Expat Happy Hour to IN TRANSIT. I was worried, right? That people would not come along with me on the journey and feel like I left them. And obviously, there’s probably some deeper stuff going on there.

Naomi: Maybe. *laughter.*

Sundae: *laughter* But then how do you shift and change? When you are connected with people that you care about and that you feel in alignment with and still shift and change? And I think this is a universal topic, not a lot of people can identify with, in so many transitions.

Naomi: It is and I think another piece of it too that you kind of touched on is that it’s different when you’re the one deciding. When you’re the one that is in control of, even if it feels like you’re not in control, but if you’re the one that says, “Yes, we’re doing this,” or, “Yes. I’m moving” Or, “Yes. I’m transitioning with work or projects.” It has a whole different ownership and responsibility and accountability than when someone else made the decision for you. And so I think regardless of what kind of transition, it is being able to settle in with that responsibility is really powerful. I think that when you talk about letting go, also looking back, I’d be curious if this is something you can answer and maybe it’s just a reflection question but what do you know to be true about the culture and the container that you have put into place over the last 10 years that has nothing to do with whether your thread is still connected in the same way? How can I hear that question? Is it like my contribution?

Naomi: It could be your contribution. It’s about what can you look back on and know that’s still true even if you are not still in it in the same way.

Sundae: That question actually brings me joy because I think about the individual women that I’ve been able to work with and the impact that it has had on their lives, like a domino effect. I’ve had partners email me or WhatsApp me afterwards, and say, “I just want to say thank you for the work that you did with my partner,” right?

Naomi: That’s amazing.

Sundae: So that is pretty awesome. I’ve had that conversation with my boys actually, we always joke about the amount of views or downloads I get on YouTube compared to like, when the cat gets scared by a cucumber, right? And they’re like, “So Mom, you know, you’re happy when you get a couple thousand people listen to a podcast. Meanwhile, there’s a cat scared by a cucumber, that’s viral, and it’s got millions,” you know? And I said to my boys, I’m like, “No, I’m not making a viral impact in people’s lives.” But honestly, when I breathe my last breath, I know that there have been people because of our collaboration, because of them saying “yes” to themselves and then saying “yes” to our us collaboration that their life is significantly different and that is something that is so meaningful. So meaningful. And I think when I say that I feel my throat closing a little bit because I think it ties in a little bit to the shift that I’m in right now, where the work that I’m doing more is not that like deep intimate transformative personal I’ll shift, it’s in other ways. So I think there’s a little bit of a grief there of not getting to be able to be doing that deep deep work. It’s not that the work I’m doing isn’t equally important, it’s just in different ways. So that’s one thing.

So I feel really, really joyful about that there are women who are making their own money because of the work that we did together. I love that people have now become coaches because of the work that we’ve done together. I love that people are creating better boundaries in their life or that people are just being better humans to their partners. So I guess I can celebrate that. I think that’s pretty awesome.

Naomi: Well and thinking about the cat and the cucumber and the viralness of it, viral is a spike, it’s a one time thing. Your impact has been a ripple effect. And we know like if you skip a rock and water, it ripples out and that change, you may know from partners calling you afterwards and saying, “Thank you so much for that work that you did with my person,” you may know some of that, but there’s also this beautiful legacy that you’ll never know of what happened in that person’s life because of that moment that they had with you and your work and how did that then ripple out for all of their 100 years of legacy.

Sundae: I have a story that I hold onto really closely. I had someone that worked with for a Year of Transformation and just checked in to say, “Hey, how you doing? It’s been a while.” And she said, “Actually, I’ve been battling cancer.” And she said, I’m so grateful that I did Year of Transformation with you before, because of the tools that I built, I’m able to go through this differently.

Naomi: Yeah.

Sundae: Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? That meant everything to me so that ripple of not being there, but being there in their hardest times not super meaningful.

Naomi: So, I have a question for you about trust because some of the examples you shared, they were impactful because someone trusted you and the work that you had built and your 10 years of your impact and all those things. So they said, “yes” to you. How are you feeling about trusting your “yes?” Your own “yes” to you.

Sundae: If I’m really transparent my own development journey has been a shift from seeking outside validation to trust. If I get the best grade in the class, I trust I know enough. If I win the award, I trust this is good, right? So I’m very conscious of the fact that I was in a default pattern of doing that not consciously, right? And then along the way, I became aware of that. So, conscious and now I am still very much in that, I would even call it a battle of trusting, “This is good enough.” And I actually think I like I started building that over the years with my business because I would put something out in the world like a blog or a podcast and you don’t know how it lands and maybe you don’t even get very many downloads or likes or whatever and so you have to just own it in your body. “Is that good enough quality?” Not whether people like it or not, “Was it good enough?”

And so I had to teach myself that I need to decide what is “good enough” for me, right? And not always seek that outside validation. And that’s an ongoing journey for sure.

Naomi: Yeah. The, “What’s good enough?” And I also think there’s a component for all of us around, “What’s enough?” And the reason I ask you that question about trusting your own “yes” for yourself, is that I feel like especially when we build things that mean a lot for us that then also have a ripple effect. I feel like knowing you and knowing the work that you’ve done it was so beneficial for you and your close circle of work and impact. And then you realized, “Oh my gosh This is actually exponentially huge for so many other people.”

It can shift the way that we look at it to then what’s next “yes.”

And so you being in this transition personally with your family and about who’s earning how much money? Who’s taking a rest? Who’s going to lean into different work patterns and habits and realities? That, in addition to your business and saying “yes” to what’s next. And especially when you talk about being a planner and structured and all of the things.

Sundae: So let me just share a little bit behind the scenes on the “yes” to “what’s next?” Because not everybody knows about this. Some of it is also quite new. And about being able to plan. Really interesting is on my ninth business anniversary, I was in South Africa, my life looked completely different. I was in South Africa, I was having a glass of wine and I was talking to my husband about how proud I was of what I was able to build in the nine years of my company. I did the thing I never knew I could, and then I was able to do it. In terms of my community groups, revenue, that sort of thing.

And I talked about what I was so grateful for and things that I was forced to learn that I never would have learned, about podcasting and social media and all those things. And then I also reflected on what it was missing. And I think it was also driven by COVID. I had been working virtually for nine years. Of course, I had client things in person from time to time but on some levels, very isolated in West Africa, in South Africa, and I literally worked in my garage. So how much more Isolated can you get it? It was actually a really fancy thing, but sounds better when I complain about it like that.

And I talked about how I missed being in a team. I missed actually not having control over everything. I missed not having to set the topic tone all the time. I wanted someone else to throw content at me, I wasn’t ready for. Or help me understand topics that I hadn’t thought about exploring myself. And so I was talking about the things I missed. And my husband pulls his phone out of his pocket and he goes, “Hey, I saw this today and I thought of you.” And I read the description and it was for a global role in a company in Switzerland. And I read it and I just laughed out loud because it was exactly the thing that I said I missed and what I was wanting to build, actually, for my clients, as I move forward.

And it was the weirdest thing because a year before that, my eighth anniversary, I was like, “I will never ever work again in an organization.” I was like, “Nope, never gonna do that.” And so one thing led to the next. The way I looked at it, from an entrepreneurial perspective is I got a client contract and does it matter whether it goes on my business tax or my personal tax. I said “yes” to a project, let’s say to a role where I was able to do exactly – actually it turned out to be more than what I wanted. And it was that environment that I wanted to be in and I felt so grateful. So I said “yes” to that.

But what I didn’t know was coming was I didn’t know that there would be more offered to me where I would be doing more with organizational transformation. Where I would be asked to step up as a leader. Where I would take on interim roles. Having to live the leadership principles that I’ve been working with people for years, right? And what I didn’t know is that my partner at the same time would be in a process of reflection transformation and which would also shift how we show up and what we do. So these are things I didn’t see coming and I just feel so grateful because before my heart even had a chance to ask for it, it delivered.

Naomi: Yeah. So that is so beautiful. And it also shows the really beautiful, almost the flip, Sundae, of all of the people you’ve worked for their transformation. That same community was working on your transformation without you even knowing it.

Sundae: Mmm. That is so interesting. Like, they were getting me ready for what was next? Wow, I’ve never thought of it like that before.

Yeah, and that also says why I’m just so grateful. And why gratitude is there and why you can see there’s that connection to my community because this is the thing. I’ve always tried to explain to my husband. I’ve said, “What I do is not a job. It’s not like I clock in at 8:00 and leave it at 17:00. It’s an expression of who I am. It’s not me showing up and doing my life’s work.”

And you can challenge that and say that your work is too much part of your identity and there are legitimate challenges. And I also think, if I get the choice to show up in the world, in a way that is an expression of who I am and it does offer the best I’ve got or actually it makes me work through the things that aren’t the best that I’ve got, then how amazing is that?

Naomi: Yeah. It’s really amazing. The other thing I wanted to kind of uphold for you as well, and folks that have been in your orbit for a while already know this. People that might be orbiting across this, don’t know this about you, you’ve done such a beautiful job. So I just want to honor this. You’ve done such a beautiful job of putting what you’ve had to offer and on offer in a bite-sized way, in ways that will live on forever. So that impact, this last ten years of your legacy is still there. It’s not going away. And so I think part of that like closed fistness, you’ve already worked through, it just has to process all the way through your body, of saying, “Okay, I’ve opened my hand. I’ve said, yes, to these things, I’m trusting what’s next for me is best for me and this other piece still sits next to me, where folks can access folks, can still have access to that transformational work that you’ve put together and delivered.” And that’s a big thing.

I don’t know if you and I have talked about this before. I have a worthy work notebook and I actually keep it right here. It literally is just a notebook. But in it goes all the little nuggets and morsels of things that I’ve done in my life that I deem worthy. And what’s fascinating about that, it’s never the big things. It’s the stages that I speak on or the things that people would view as a job or as big, don’t end up in this. The things that end up in this is I remembered to *insert any number of things.* But maybe an introduction of I introduce this person to this person. Or I learned a lesson when someone called me out and gave me some feedback. So I just think about that for you a lot around – I mean, 10 years would be hard to fit into a worthy work notebook, but that may help as you continue writing the wave of this current transition and celebrating 10 years of noting and holding on to it for maybe five seconds longer as they flip through your mind, the really beautiful, worthy work that you’ve done.

Sundae: It makes me think about what you were just talking about creating something and this idea of legacy. I spent this summer when I moved back to Switzerland. Imagine we just gave up nine years of living on the continent of Africa. I had transitioned my kids into a new language environment school, my partner was still abroad. And it was summer, gorgeous out and I locked myself up in this apartment, which of course has no air conditioning, and sweat and sweat and sweat. And I recorded behind lights, I recorded an upgraded version of my Adapt and Succeed program because I wanted something, because it was time. And been like five years and the branding had changed, and some of the things had to change.

But I wanted to create something that could be independent of me and I wanted to give my Global Coaches the best possible quality product to move on. So for me, it was probably even a bad business decision or health, or family decision. But I knew in terms of enlightenment my Integrity, I was like, “I need to create this and put these tools in a way that people can digest.” And I’ve gotten at least another five years on this, right? And that’s how I sweated my way through July, half of July and August. And we were renovating, we’re moving into a house. I was starting this role. It was crazy but I knew it was the right thing to do. So that is one thing I think in terms of, it speaks a lot.

And then this is maybe a good time to talk about the way I see things shifting in the next, I’m not going to say 10 years, it would be tidy to say 10 years. But let’s say in the next few years. What I want to do with my company, I want to step back physically and put myself forward in, let’s say, these tidier products. And then let my coaches do the work that they’re made to do and I’m going to say why.

My work has been a labor of love and deeply connected to my life experience for the last 10 years. Understanding being in a bi-national marriage, having a bi-national family, trying to find acceptance in Switzerland. Leaving everything I built to go to West Africa, going through dramatic changes through political stuff, doing it again in South Africa. All of that was driven from a very personal experience and I poured that into what I was doing. And then at one point, I realized that is what I had in me for that. I’ve now brought into the world. And there’s something else brewing.

That’s a little bit where Wisdom Fusion was coming in. There’s something new that’s coming and it’s building, but I need to also disengage a little, to be able to build this next thing. And my coaches are perfect to step into that space because they’re on fire for this. There in that deep creating space like I was three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, years ago. They’re pouring their lives into third-culture kids, to bi-lingual relationships, etc, etc. And all kinds of transitions around midlife, and menopause, and divorce. And they’ve got that fire in their belly for it. And they are actually the better ones to be there. And so, I feel like the role that I came to serve has been filled and now it’s someone else’s job to feel that. And they’re better because they’re meeting people where they’re at. I’m doing other things and I’m giving what I’ve got now for other projects, and that’s building. So I think that is a little bit of that acceptance. That sort of cycle has come to completion and an accepting that and then honoring that. And yeah.

Naomi: So you asked about finding different language for all that for all of that and so I want to just read what I wrote down and you don’t have to react now. But:

• The leader beside came up a lot while you were talking because I don’t think that it’s as much that you’re going to the background, as much as you’re just stepping next. And not even stepping beside but I think leader beside is a really powerful thought. I also think that you’ve done such an incredible job and you’re excited about elevating the impact of others. And I think that’s also beautiful because personally, it doesn’t minimize your work by elevating the work of your coaching constellation.

• I also think that you’re a catalyzer. And so that came to mind also that you’ve catalyzed this work.

• And even metabolic comes in a little bit around you have to have a foundation for the explosion to happen. You have to have the right things together, and you’ve done that, you’ve alkalized that in the last 10 years, and now it’s time to have the exponential impact that’s going to happen because you’ve brought in those other leaders.

• The other thing that came to mind for you, Sundae, is that, and I’m getting goosebumps because this is myself as well and I see it so strongly in you, you’re a fire starter. And we’re not meant to do all of the things. We’re not meant to fire start and tend the coals. And so what you’re doing is handing over the tools to your team, the constellation coaches to tend the coals. And neither is more important of a job. I think that’s the other thing that may have some of the angst for you is that your job has been so important in the last 10 years of building this, and it’s equally as important that they keep it going and that they bring all of what they have that you don’t have to it.

So there’s something in the alchemy and the metabolizing and all of that that might be some interesting words to think about, as you process and talk about the shift.

Sundae: I love that. There’s so much permission there. And what I realized I wrote down while you were talking, I wrote down the word “consistency.” So tending the coals is “consistency.” And I think that’s where I came in conflict because it’s one of my principles. I teach about consistency is show up, show up, show up.

So if consistency is a high-value and delivers results then there is a tension of knowing when to stop tending the coals and let someone else take over the coals so you can start another fire.

Naomi: Yes.

Sundae: And now I’m going to go back to the word that I said out loud, which I’ve never said before, and that was “cycle.”

I think, I finally and I’m talking about, like right now in this conversation. I was seeing it like, start-stop-shift. And now, I’m seeing it more like an “operating cycle.” I built the foundation and I helped develop people’s capacity and then now it’s time to sort of unleash this into another realm.

Naomi: Yeah. What was really interesting about what you just did is your hands and I don’t know if I’ll be able to audibly share this but your hands went in a almost like a spring motion of a cycle instead of a circle cycle. Which I think a lot of us would think of a cycle coming back to then maybe the cycle starting again. And your hands automate. Your body was like it’s a perpetual cycle that goes out from you. And so that’s powerful.

Sundae: And that’s something that I teach. It’s about how we talked about the Stress-Growth-Adaptation Dynamic, that when you feel stress, that’s a good sign because you’re growing. Then you adapt. And then you grow again. And so I think that’s also part of that. That’s something you and I have talked about. I am really often uncomfortable right now. The level of responsibility that I have and the newness of the roles. I mean, I’m really uncomfortable. And I went from mentor coaching, not just coaching but then mentor coaching, and doing the thing I’ve been doing for years and years to a completely new context, right? And we know conscious incompetence and then conscious competence still takes effort.

And so that’s something I want to also share with people when they’re doing something new and they’re in transition, and it feels hard, it doesn’t mean it’s bad. It means that you’re growing and you’re learning. And my thing right now, my mantra right now is like, “All of this is going to feel different in one year.” *laughter*

Naomi: *laughter* Yes. Yes.

Sundae: This is all going to be different in one year.

Naomi: Yes, the thing that comes up for me, especially when you think about that your past work with expats and folks on the move and knowing, both of our experiences. It’s almost like, we have to pull back in the things that we know to be true as simple as how have we helped our children adapt in a new school? What do we tell them to do if they get lost? What do we tell them to do if they feel uncomfortable or alone? It’s the same exact things. And what works for today is not probably what’s going to work tomorrow. So being able to have that flow and that flex of what do I need for right now? And then also comes back to be real where you’re at.

I also I’m trying to find on my phone really quickly, this quote, that I think, is so powerful, and so beautiful.

“Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror, just keep going. No feeling is final.” And it’s by Rainer Maria Rilke.

And I think that “no feeling is final” is so powerful, especially when we’re able to slow down long enough to sit with ourselves, and be like, “What am I feeling?” Because I think so often for me, I’ve programmed myself to what I feel as a comfortable feeling and so then I just say, “Well, I’m just feeling uncomfortable right now.” It’s not actually for me, uncomfortable, maybe it’s that I’m feeling self-conscious, or maybe that I’m feeling disgusted about not having made a decision fast enough or the right decision.

So I think remembering that no feeling is final remembering that we still decide. We still get to decide, how are we showing up in this moment. How are you showing up for others? How are we showing up to celebrate? How are we showing up to memorialize what’s been in the past?

The last thing I want to say, Sundae, is you said this and it’s so so powerful. You said, “You’ve been creating something that exists independently of yourself.” If I’ve never heard a better definition of legacy.

It’s not that it’s just that someone remember that of you, it’s literally going to perpetuate and continue to exist outside of you and that’s I mean talk about Legacy by Design inside of transition.

Sundae: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. It’s pretty awesome. And I’m also grateful for having this image of a steel ball and then magnets come to it. I feel like I’m bringing those 10 years with me and I’m the steel ball, feeling a little bit naked, a little bit bare and I’m having these magnets come to me like new learning. I have so many examples of great leadership that I get to be around every day. I have so many examples of courageous conversations I get to be witness to. I have to have courageous conversations every day. The magnets that are coming to the steel ball right now that are going to stick with me, I feel so grateful for that.

And I think, for me, if I pull it back to what we talked about with making the impact on people, I have to trust that those will sort of expand the way in which I can make an impact in people’s lives. In ways that I couldn’t predict, what would happen to my life one year ago. I don’t know what will happen in 10 years, right? And I’m just trusting, I’m learning exactly what I need to learn right now. I don’t know why but this is what I’m doing. I’m growing in exactly the ways I need to grow right now.

And this is the trust that I ask my clients to have in their own process. And I have to live it and I’m like, “Dang it.” *laughter*

“Fine, I’ll walk the talk.” It’s so frustrating but it’s also like, “Yeah. Actually, this is what it’s about.”

Naomi: Yeah. Well and that comes back to the modeling and doing not only what you said you would do but doing what you’ve asked others to do.

The image also comes when you were talking about the steel ball of do you know the bean sculpture in Chicago? It’s a mirrored huge thing that looks kind of like a lima bean. And when it was installed in this beautiful park, everyone is like, “What is that? That doesn’t make any sense. I don’t understand that, that doesn’t have any resonance to me.” There was all of this drama about, “What is the bean?”

What’s beautiful is that it sits there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year and people come to it and they can see their reflection in it because it’s mirrored. And so there’s all these beautiful – you can walk underneath it, you can walk around it, people take photos of it.

And my point in saying all of this is that you’ve laid this bean. Oh, how appropriate?

Sundae: *laughter*

Naomi: That was funny. You’ve laid this bean as a foundation to say come experience what you need from the past 10 years of my work. Come, it will look different for everybody. It might not resonate right away but it’s still going to be there when you need to come back to it. And it allows people to have a different experience with it.

And I think that’s what I am so I just am so impressed by you and the work that you’ve done because it has been so diverse in what it can do for people. So, I’m just celebrating with you. You are incredible and such a big decision to be able to say “yes” to yourself and to your family and to your own transformation over the next however many years.

Sundae: Who knows?

Naomi: Who knows?

Sundae: Well, I want to say “thank you” for being part of my journey. I don’t know when we actually met. We met in 2018, I know, but we met before maybe 2016-17.

Naomi: Probably, yeah.

Sundae: You’ve been there through a lot of those transitions and you’ve also been an important touch point for me because who do transition specialists go to when they need support in transition, right? It’s like a therapist who needs therapists.

Naomi: Right? And it comes from all of this. All of our relationships, not all of our relationship, but it comes from that foundation of having lived through something. And so for you to be now, up-leveling. I don’t know if that’s the right word, but to level into this next thing, you now are going to have even more of your own experience to be able to bring back to your community and your life.

Sundae: And I think where I have to trust that is it’s exactly what happened in 2012 when I was in my dream job. I was ahead of intercultural management and I had a job I never thought I would be lucky enough to have amazing people around me doing exactly what I wanted. And I left it because I felt like if I stayed – it was for other reasons to go abroad as well, but for the whole family, but also for me professionally because I knew if I stayed, I would just be tending the coals in my life and not starting a fire for me professionally. And I’m so grateful I did it. And no one thought it made sense because I was giving up something really secure. Something that I had built and worked hard for. And I’m so grateful I did that. And it feels a little bit like another pivot point where I’m doing that.

Sundae: All right. Well, thank you so much Naomi for joining me in this reverse interview for my 10th anniversary. I couldn’t think of a better way to celebrate.

Naomi: Thank you for asking me.

So there you have it. That was such a powerful conversation for me. I hope that you’re taking away something from it as well. For me, I’m walking into that feeling of surrender, that feeling of satisfaction and the joy about what’s next. I can’t wait for you to be part of that journey. I’m so excited to connect you with my coaches and with my program so that you can get the same sort of results that have been possible through the collaboration over the last 10 years. I’m pouring all of my wisdom from my clients, from my experience, from my professional competencies into everything that I do and I want you to be able to share that together with me.

All right, so what is next? What does that mean for working with me? What does that mean for working with the Coalition? Was that mean for the podcast? The answer is, stay tuned, because those answers are now in development. We are in transformation, what I can say is that I am available by request. My time is much more limited right now. So I’m selective about who I work with live. I’ve had the gorgeous pleasure of co-designing a workshop for a women’s network where we featured the learning outcomes from my Wisdom Fusion program. I have the huge honor of working with an executive team and helping them through their largest challenges and more. What I do have it. In mind are, get this, I would love to do a retreat sometime in the coming year, so stay tuned on my newsletter for more.

If you want to work with me in a very hands-on, connected way, in person, let’s say, I don’t know, somewhere gorgeous in the South of France, let me know because we’ll be planning a retreat in the near future. I can’t wait to be part of this next phase with you, with my company, with the Global Coach Coalition, with the content that I’ve created over the years.

I will leave you during this beautiful 10 year celebration with something I find very poignant from William Stafford. He says: “I embrace emerging experience. I participate in discovery. I am a butterfly. I am not a butterfly collector. I want the experience of the butterfly.”

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