S1E8: Bananas, War & Immigration... Without Politics

The Phoenix Rose Show

S1E8: War, Bananas & Immigration... without politics!

Summary

In this podcast episode, the host discusses the fascination and obsession that many Guatemalans have with American culture and lifestyle. She shares her own experiences with being seen as a celebrity or having an entourage simply for being American. The host also touches on the influence of social media and globalization on fashion and trends, and how the desire to emulate American style and brands can symbolize status and success. She ends by contemplating the genuine interest that some may have in something that is just different from what Phoenix shares her experience living in Guatemala and talks about the struggles the country faces due to its violent history, economic inequality, lack of social safety net, and political corruption. She also discusses the immigration crisis and why some people risk everything to make the dangerous journey to the United States. She encourages listeners to spread awareness and understanding and invites them to share their own experiences and perspectives. Guatemala and the United States have a complicated history, with the US interfering in Guatemalan affairs and causing harm to the indigenous Maya people. This includes garnering support for a coup in the 1950s and later supporting a 36-year long civil war. The US is also seen as responsible for the poverty and violence in Guatemala, as well as the struggles of Guatemalan migrants trying to enter the US. This is a complex and controversial topic, and this episode barely scratches the surface, but attempts to represent perspectives from both sides in a fair and informed manner.

Transcription (AIGEN)

Are you in the mood for a little controversy, chaos and culture today?

Perfect.

I'm Phoenix Rose and today's episode has all of that and more. We are going to try and discuss both sides of illegal immigration. I know we're just touching on it. We're also talking about bananas, war, and the love hate relationship between Guatemala and America. Is it jealousy? Is it well-earned hostility? Is it just the US poking its nose in other people's business? Yep. I'm going there and we might not end up where you're predicting. Today's episode is a trip.

Hi there. Welcome. Bienvenido. I am so happy that you are here. I'm so happy to be here. Before we jump in, just a quick note the listener discretion warning in the intro is obviously meant to be a little bit humorous, but today's episode does cover some mature, graphic, and controversial topics, so if you're not prepared to hear about these subjects, I kindly ask you to pause and join us for the next episode. Thank you for understanding.

So last week I signed off with that discussion with Fawn with a promise of controversy. And I assure you, we have plenty of that to go around today. But first, I want to start off by thanking Fawn again for being my guest. I always enjoy our time together, but that was just so fun setting up the mics and headphones and just hanging out. So again, thank you so much Fawn. That was, we got to do that again. It was great.

For now, on with the controversy, starting with a few questions, just to kind of put them in the back of your mind. Have you ever had your own fan club or entourage, people who just follow you around just because you're cool or popular or like a celebrity? Can you imagine risking your life, your freedom, even being sold into different types of slavery to get into another country? And last question, how are you at trust any issues there?

It looks like it's time for a story.

When I first arrived in Guatemala, mind you, as an adult, a married adult, as opposed to a teen or 20-something looking to be courted, I was amazed, absolutely amazed at how nice people were to me, almost falling over themselves to be my friends. Now, for reasons we are absolutely not getting into anytime soon, I have some deep seated trust issues, but I was kind of like, well, this is definitely weird, but I guess it's a cultural thing. They're just really, really nice here because it was everybody. I had a problem. They want to fix it. I need a repair. They know a guy. I want a decent cup of coffee. Oh, let me take you again. Kind of weird, but okay. I'm not used to everybody being that overly nice, but it's a different country. And there are a lot of things I'm not used to. We go to a business, restaurant, club, and the owner can namedrop, namedrop us, so weird. Like, hey, yeah. Did you know the gringos were here yesterday? Yeah. The gringos visit, the gringos use my business. The gringos. Gringos. I know we're the only gringos around, right? It's just I'm not used to that at all. It's very strange.

Now, I think part of the reason I feel like so many people acted like they want it to be my friend is their obsession with America, with Americans, with American lifestyle and culture? I automatically had my status, bumped several points just for being American. And so they got a bump in status being seen with me. To this day when I walk down the street, people will come out of their homes. This is in my neighborhood. They'll come out of their homes and wave and say hello. Some people will want to join me on my walk to the tienda just to buy a Coke. Children will come up and give me hugs. And I know it sounds bizarre, right? Like I'm a celebrity or a Pied Piper or Snow White. And I assure you, I'm none of those things. I mean, yes, we've we've helped a lot of people. We've helped a lot of families. And yes, I have physical traits or features that certainly stand out from what is typical in my neighborhood. But really, I'm American. I wind up with an entourage simply for being American.

Part of it is that the culture here is just friendlier. They're kind of more polite, more formal in general, when you pass on the street, you typically acknowledge each other with at least a cordial greeting as you're walking. If you're friends, you stop and chat for several minutes, even if you don't really have the time. Time here is a little bit subjective or flexible to say the least. But even if you want to message somebody, if you want to message your friend and ask them what they're doing later, what do you normally say? Like, hey, what are you doing later? Right. It's pretty, pretty simple here. It's not even kidding. It's like, hi, hello. Good morning. How did you wake up? I hope that you woke up well, I hope that you are well and that you and your family have been blessed by God today. I hope that I'm not interrupting you, but are you busy later? And that isn't even an exaggeration. That's literally how those messages go. And it does sound nicer in Spanish. I mean, when other people say it in Spanish, not me so much. And on top of that, it's not just one message. It's like 5 or 6 messages where you're waiting for the question. That's something that takes some getting used to as well. But I texted my best friend in the States, hey. What are you doing later? Want to eat? That's. That's all there is. What? We have a closer relationship, and we can use more casual. We can use more casual language.

You know, for me, and this is probably a me issue, I don't know, but it was very uncomfortable having so many people just so over the top nice to me and accommodating and trying so hard to be my friend instead of instead of being just their authentic selves. You know, the cynical part of my brain says that most of the people act like they want to be your friend because they want something from you money, status, food, whatever their want is. And that is certainly valid in a lot of situations. That's not the path I'm trying to go down today, but I didn't know who to trust and had a really hard time with that. Honestly, I still do. I sort of I'll pull back from things, pull back from people, not leave, not want to leave our home or our property if I don't have to, and take I want to take time and space. I did that a lot in the beginning and I still do that occasionally now And it's been it's been quite a while, several years that we've been here.

Now, another complicating factor for us is that we are the outsiders moving into their community. We're the ones who speak a different language from everyone else. We're the ones who are different. We didn't move into an expat area. Everyone else around us speak Spanish. A few of the kids know a little bit of English. They're learning that in school. But even if you know a little bit of Spanish, they know a little bit of English. It's still really difficult to have meaningful conversations and, you know, build those relationships and gain trust either way. So I think that part is challenging as well. That fascination, though, that sort of obsession is one that I think so many Guatemalans have specifically with Americans. With American style, with that lifestyle, the perceived cultures. And it's coming from so many places, not the least of which are avenues like TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, just social media in general. There's so much exposure to American media like movies, TV shows, music, music videos, um, and it shapes, shapes, trends, shapes fashion trends worldwide, whether it's positive or not.

And the economic aspirations. I've touched on this in another episode. People think that people here in Guatemala think they're pretty much all Americans are wealthy, and relatively speaking, we are now, I think a lot of Guatemalans are picturing like Scrooge McDuck level wealthy, like money coming out of our ears wealthy. Which isn't exactly the case for most people. But again, it's it's all relative, right? So that perception of of American prosperity and success influences people's desire to to emulate American lifestyle, including this clothing and brand choices, because they're associated with affluence and innovation and wearing the American clothing, it can also symbolize status, your social status. Right? And it's not even that different from what a lot of Americans will do. Maybe you are dressing for the job you want. Maybe you're driving a car that is really cool, shows other people that you are cool, or you have more money than maybe you do. Maybe you're struggling to make those car payments. Maybe you have a big, beautiful house and it isn't exactly furnished. You're trying to portray an image, right? That you're more successful, you have more money than you do, and this is kind of the same rate. By wearing those those American style clothes and using the brands, you're putting out an image that that you are of higher social status, higher socioeconomic status, and you're showing other people that, you know what I'm doing, all right? Because you're emulating something that's seen as a higher. So it's this image that you put out into the world and especially younger generations right now, I think more than ever before in history are being influenced by by global trends and embracing fashion, and I mean all kinds of trends. From the outside world. I mean, globalization is. It's just going wild where it's going faster and faster than ever. And there's still the traditional tourism and travel. American tourists visit Guatemala, Guatemalans visit the states, and there's that cross-cultural exchange.

But sometimes, sometimes I think that it's just something different. I don't have any actual data on this, but my guess, my guess would be that something north of, I don't know, 90% of people here have dark hair, dark eyes, dark skin, and are relatively short compared to Americans. So maybe if you're tall, if you have green or blue eyes, if you have red or blonde hair, it's different, right? It'll catch someone's attention. I have light colored eyes. I have light colored skin. I mean, it's just it's different. But I think I think they're genuinely interested in something that it's just it's just different. Something maybe other than Brown Eyes. Although another thing about it I've heard, I don't think I've ever heard anyone here refer to brown eyes as brown. If so many other words for like more descriptive words like cafe or caramel. I really like that.

But the thing is, though, I don't I don't need anyone to like me just because I'm American. There's nothing inherently special about me because I have green eyes. I didn't accomplish anything to make my eyes green. And in the same way, I don't need enemies because of stupid crap that the government of my country may have done, or the DEA or the CIA, or frankly, anyone who isn't me. I think that we all pretty much want to be liked or disliked for who we are individually. I think that's just human, right?

So let's delve into a less pleasant part. So whether you know details or numbers or even pay attention to the news, I think everyone is aware of at least some of the issues that America's southern border. There are a lot of issues, and you can call it whatever you want. Put whatever label you want. I really don't want to be political any more than I absolutely have to be. And I know everything is political, right? My goal is to look at things through more of a more of a socio economic lens, more from just being curious. What I'm talking about specifically today is the journey of Guatemalans in particular, and the risks that they are willing to take in order to cross the sovereign border of the United States in a way that they know is against the law. Okay. I don't think that was super political. But there are gobtons of people crossing the border every day why gobtons? Because nobody actually knows the real number. I mean, you can make educated guesses based on the number of contacts and no one got aways, but but it's a lot. So highly scientific. Number gobtons of people. Now, people always want to talk to me here about America and ask me questions about what America is like. And then tell me about their friend or relative that got into the US, about how they're so excited that they got in and not with, you know, passport and visa, but they got into the US and they got their child into school. They got a job. Two people I know of in particular, one is doing construction, the other do a the other is doing housekeeping, not stereotyping. Those are just jobs from the informal employment market. They're easy to get without having documents, easier to get without having documents, I should say. But they're so proud. So proud. Anyone who knows me knows that pretty much any thought or emotion that I have shows on my face, and I'm working on that. So when they're talking to me, I try not to let my feelings show on my face as I ask them questions. But inside, I'll admit I'm I'm angry. I'm confused. Why on earth are they telling me this? Why are they so happy and excited? Why on earth do they think I want to hear this? They know I'm from the States. That's why. That's why they're talking to me. They know that their fill in the blank basically just broke into my country. Added one more kid to to an already overwhelmed school system, and for what to send? They're less than minimum wage money because informal job market they can be taken advantage of. They're not making minimum wage, they're making less than that. And they'll accept it because it's way more than what they were making here. And because they are undocumented, they can be taken advantage of. It's just that's just how things work sometimes. But they're sending that money back to Guatemala instead of spending investing it in the United States. And, you know, adding that money, putting that money back into the American economy. So why why would that make me happy? I'm gonna let that simmer. I'm gonna come back to that in a little bit.

Let's talk about some of the reasons that Guatemalans don't like Americans. And this is according to different sources. I tried to be objective. I know that some of these sources are left, right and center and that some of them are government. Um, what's the word I should use? Government persuaded if not government owned. So, I mean, just take it with a grain of salt. Some of it is true though. So one of the things they said is that the US has interfered with their country and therefore affected their communities and quality of life. Okay, that okay Another one is that the US is interfering with their migration and quote, which affects their ability to improve their lives by not allowing them to reach the United States. Okay, I'm not sure how I feel about that one. Next one year, the US is deporting people who have migrated to the US in search of a better life and making them live in poverty, in violence. Additionally, they say deportation from the US back to Guatemala contributes to instability. Now, these are paraphrased quotes. Mostly they were originally in Spanish and they went through Google Translate and I'm reading them to you in the English translation, but more here. Gained culture from the US has worsened violence and Guatemala over the past two decades, and US politics and religious ideologies have shaped Guatemalan politics. Doesn't really see a lot more here. Doesn't really say much more here, except that the evangelical and Pentecostal communities historically supported the Guatemalan military and dictatorship. Now, there are a whole lot of evangelical churches in certain areas of Guatemala. I don't know that I've seen Pentecostal churches, but I haven't specifically been looking for them. And obviously there are so many places that I haven't been. So I don't know where those churches are, but these are some of these are kind of legit. And if it's there, if it's their perspective, I mean, you know, people. People tend to have a short term memory when it comes to, well, pretty much anything, but especially with world history, and especially if it's something they only read about and it didn't live through. I mean, something bigger or better, more interesting happens and kind of pushes other things out of our brains, maybe. So to understand the background of US interference, we need to go back a way back. The whole thing goes back like 500 years. 1524 actually, that is 500 years. That's when the Spaniards came and, um, land in Guatemala enslaved the indigenous people. They were here for like 300 years. Actually, this story goes way back longer than that, because the story of the Maya people in Guatemala goes back almost 4000 years, I think. I don't really have the time or attention span to cover all of that today. So I'm just going to go back to the 1950s, and I'll try and be as concise as I can here. And with the caveat that they're, what do they say? Three sides to every truth. And I don't think I don't believe that any single entity holds the details of the complete truth, but I'll go ahead and report the basics. So going back to the 1950s, Guatemala's president at the time was Jacobo Arbenz. I'm not sure if I'm saying that hundred percent correctly, but I think that's what his name was, Jacobo Robbins. This dude wanted to do a land reform, which was a land And redistribution, giving land back to the indigenous Maya, who are now peasants working the land for other people. Remember, the Spanish came in 1524, took the land, enslaved the people. So in 15 I'm sorry. In 1954, 1954, the CIA, the American CIA, orchestrated a coup that ousted Arbenz, who, by the way, was a democratically elected president, then a military regime controlled things after that. Now, that seems like a weird thing to do for no reason. So you may have heard of the United Fruit Company if you haven't. Well, after some things that they went through, they reorganized and rebranded and now go by the name Chiquita. So maybe you've heard of them. As of 2014, 1 or 2 Brazilian companies bought Chiquita, so they are no longer an American company, but they used to be. So at this time that we're talking about industry 1954, the United Fruit Company was an American MNC, and they had control again, very scientific term of gigatons of land, which gave them so much influence over economic and political developments in Guatemala and other Latin American countries, and with money. In power. They had unbelievable lobbying power in the United States. So this land, these captains of land that president wanted to give back to the indigenous people, I'm sure you can see where this is going. So, yes, the CIA, the coup. But I'm presuming that there were some people getting really ticked off and doing plotting and planning and cabanas in the jungle and forest, because six years later, in 1960, there was a rebellion against the military regime that led to the outbreak of a civil war. Now, there are a lot more details, right? It's a war. A terrible, bloody war that lasted 36 freaking years, almost four decades. Some people listening today haven't been alive that many years. I know other people listening have been married longer than that, but almost four decades, 36 years. But the US just did that one thing right? I don't know, I wasn't there. I mean, I don't want to go into gruesome details of war, but it's at war. Here are a few numbers to help paint the picture of how people were impacted. Over 200,000 people lost their lives Let that sit for a minute. 200,000 people and they don't even know the exact number. To this day, they don't know the exact number. Over 80% of the casualties who are indigenous Maya. Over 90% of the human rights violations were committed by state, military or paramilitary forces. What that means is almost all of the awful things were committed by people wearing uniforms. The war left part of the population. Displaced communities were wiped out. Communities were burned to the ground. Very specific things happen to women in those communities and they were forced migrations. Um, these indigenous Maya communities absolutely suffered disproportionately. Now, these numbers are not what the original reports said. When the government came out with their initial reports, they said something very much opposite from what the international studies found. So the US apparently played a role through military aid and covert actions and supported them. The military dictator that was installed after the coup with Arbenz. This war. It is fresh, it is recent, and the legacy shapes Guatemala's social fabric to this day. Everywhere you go, you'll see barbed wire, razor wire above the huge concrete walls that surround people's patios. Iron on windows and doors. And I don't mean like, you know, rich people. This is just people who are comfortable enough to be able to afford homes with walls and doors and windows. This is just typical. It's normal. And this is something that is separate and apart, apparently from the drugs and gangs and that violence. But an entire generation of boys and men were wiped out, disappeared. There've been some very good books and studies written on this war. I apologize for the pronunciation, but Rigoberta menchu, a Maya woman, actually won a Nobel Peace Prize for her portrayal of the war in her book. I've read it. It's good. The book. The book is good. Terrible story. It's the book is difficult to get through, but you get to a point and you just can't put it down. I highly recommend that. 1996 1996 is when this war ended. I know for some people that's like it was a million years ago, but for others it's like it was yesterday. As far as world history is concerned. I mean, 1896 is a lot closer to yesterday than a million years ago. This is a recent wound when the war ended with the peace accords in 96. They had a few things that they agreed to the amnesty law. This will be, I'm sure, challenging to figure out what it provided amnesty for certain offences committed during the conflict. Guess who received amnesty? It wasn't the Mayans they didn't do couldn't do the things. But this was supposed to allow for reconciliation and healing. So that 90% number that I read, amnesty. It was also supposed to allow for disarmament to urgently disarm rebel groups, aka Mayans and people fighting on their behalf. They're also supposed to have further peace talks. Um, they're supposed to work out problems with land ownership to this day 2024. That has not been resolved right now. Right this minute. Guatemala has the highest concentration of land ownership, possibly anywhere, depending on the source. Only 18 to 20% of farmland in the country is owned by small landholders. Like single families. While the overwhelming 80 to 82% belongs to international companies, to regional businesses and wealthy individuals. Now, it's said there are a handful of businesses and about 20 families control the country, the economy and the government. I don't know how true that is, but I mean, it kind of makes sense with land numbers like that, and it has this human nature. I think it's far easier and convenient to shift the attention and blame to someone else. It's much easier to say to the people, see, look, they started it. Go get mad at them. When people are angry and demanding their land, rather than facing your own internal problems. Rather than battle the wealthy and influential families that are wealthy and influential for a reason, rather than risk your own career or worse. I mean, is the US blameless? Usually not. We've usually gotten involved with something somewhere along the line, right? We're big and powerful. We have money. We have to help. We have to pick a side and up. I mean, we have to make sure it's the correct side. We have to make sure they have the correct type of government, make sure it lines up with world partners, worldviews, trade agreements, other geopolitical interests, and then send them some combination of Enough money. Man's. What else? Food. Oil. Weapons. And I know, I know, I know, I know that is extremely, extremely simplistic but at the most basic level also true. And not just the US, but any country in the position of being able to help another. And clearly these are really, really big issues. I am just barely skimming the top of them. But this country, Guatemala, has serious, serious problems, deeply rooted problems and poverty. Poverty here isn't like isn't like poverty in the US. If you're cold and hungry and homeless, there is probably somewhere you can go, right? It might be humbling, but you can go get food, clothes, basic medical care, shower. You can get some help and for your kids to. That just isn't a thing here. And I know there are big, big problems with mental health, with substance abuse access. But I mean, there are shelters, there are kitchens, there are there are places available for people to go. That isn't a thing here. There isn't any kind of social safety net. The education system, some of them absolutely are doing a good job, are doing the best they can with the resources they have available. Some of them are just a joke. Water. Water like the second most important thing after air, right? 95% of it here is contaminated, polluted surface water, groundwater, you know, serious water crisis. It's awful. Food, food. There isn't enough food. There isn't enough being produced. There isn't excess, at least not if you're poor, which is over half the country. And there's violence, gangs, systemic corruption. Like you cannot believe earthquakes, floods, droughts, bugs, snakes, volcanoes. Don't even get me started on the patriarchy. I mean, this is it's like a freaking remake of the Old Testament. Not everywhere, but most places. Can you imagine? Can you imagine your life being so terrible, so unstable, unpredictable, being so chronically hungry and sick that you would work for years to save that money, living on only tortillas so you could pay a coyote who you don't know and who are notoriously dangerous to take your child into the US, into another country so they can have a chance, hopefully hook up with a family member or someone else you know that's already there. Get into a public school system that actually goes to school five days a week, has things like toilet paper, electricity, food, running water, not just the school knowing, knowing. There's a chance that something absolutely awful, so many awful things could happen on that trip. Just just for the chance that they could avoid living your life again. Me? No, no, actually, no, I cannot. I've tried and I cannot. I have a decent life now, but I've lived through some crap, some really awful, terrible things that no one should have to experience. And especially not a child. But I cannot imagine making that journey myself, let alone, let alone sending my child on that trip. But when people are telling me their stories about the time they were in the US before they were deported Or they are fill in the blank. Who is in the US now? I think maybe they want me to share in the joy that there's a chance, that there's a chance that this person has a chance that they've seen the other side, the electricity, the roads, the water, the hospitals that actually have medical supplies that that when you're are getting pulled over by a cop, that it's probably actually a cop, that you aren't watching your grandmother and daughter working every single day in the tienda instead of tending to their health or education. I feel like I kind of get it. I still don't really like it. And I know this sounds probably incredibly juvenile. I feel like it's mine, right? It's my country and you're not doing it right, and you're going to break it. And then and then no one's going to be able to use it. I know it's like something a three year old would say, right. But the anger is showing last on my face, which is good. Probably just causes more wrinkles or my face will get stuck like that or something, I don't know. But listen, I really appreciate you hanging out with me today, trying to hear different sides of more than one country. Differential topic. And I know this was a lot and put a lot of things in very simple and simplistic terms, barely skimming the surface. But I mean, even even to this day, if you ask different people about the Civil War here and there are people here who lived through that, I mean, it's fresh. People will tell you different things. They will blame different groups. I can understand why people are confused, why there's a lack of trust, a lack of basic security, and what I don't know how to express this. As sad as I feel for them, bad luck of their lot in life due to where they were born in the timeline. And Shay. Graphically, I think I feel doubly thankful that I was born where I was and I can't. I can't change or fix the big problems. I try to help the little problems, but the big problems, I can recognize them, I can try to understand and I can spread awareness. You can help too. You can help to spread awareness, understanding, maybe even help to solve problems. I invite you to share this podcast with someone you know who who might be interested in immigration, world affairs, history. I never know who might have solutions to the problems. If you have questions or comments or experiences to share, you can email me [e-mail] or message me from wherever you're listening today. Join me next time for more stories, experiences and insight. Till then, I'm Phoenix Rose. Stay curious and stay safe.