EP 317 Navigating Sensitivity on the Fertility Journey | Dr. Amelia Kelley

The Wholesome Fertility Podcast

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Amelia Kelley @drameliakelley , a trauma-informed therapist, discusses her journey and insights into high sensitivity, coping mechanisms, and the impact of trauma on mental health. She explores the differences between empathy and compassion, the importance of understanding one's nervous system, and shares her personal fertility journey, highlighting the integration of holistic approaches such as acupuncture and herbal medicine. In this conversation, Dr. Amelia Kelley and Michelle explore the complexities of pregnancy loss, trauma, and the role of the nervous system in fertility. They discuss the importance of letting go of control and embracing spirituality, as well as the dynamics of being a highly sensitive person (HSP). The conversation delves into the benefits of body awareness and how it can aid in healing, while also addressing the challenges HSPs face in relationships and daily life. Ultimately, they highlight the adaptive nature of high sensitivity and its prevalence in the population, encouraging listeners to embrace their sensitivity as a gift rather than a burden. Takeaways

• Coping skills should be viewed as a lifestyle.
• High sensitivity is a genetic trait, not a flaw.
• Empathy can have negative health effects.
• Highly sensitive people require more alone time for regulation.
• Generational trauma can impact reproductive health.
• Understanding one's nervous system is crucial for coping.
• Holistic approaches can aid in fertility journeys.
• Stress and nervous system balance are crucial for fertility.
• Highly sensitive people (HSPs) experience the world differently.
• Body awareness can enhance healing processes.
• HSPs often respond more positively to therapeutic interventions.
• High sensitivity is an adaptive trait found in many individuals.
• Embracing sensitivity can lead to greater self-awareness and compassion.

Guest Bio: Dr. Amelia Kelley is a trauma-informed therapist, author, co-host of The Sensitivity Doctor's Podcast, researcher, and certified meditation and yoga instructor. Her specialties include art therapy, internal family systems (IFS), EMDR, and brainspotting. Her work focuses on women’s issues, empowering survivors of abuse and relationship trauma, highly sensitive persons, motivation, healthy living, and adult ADHD. She is currently a psychology professor at Yorkville University and a nationally recognized relationship expert featured on SiriusXM Doctor Radio’s The Psychiatry Show as well as NPR’s The Measure of Everyday Life. Her private practice is part of the Traumatic Stress Research Consortium at the Kinsey Institute. She is the author of Powered by ADHD: Strategies and Exercises for Women to Harness their Untapped Gifts (whichhas a corresponding online support group!), Gaslighting Recovery for Women: The Complete Guide to Recognizing Manipulation and Achieving Freedom from Emotional Abuse, coauthor of What I Wish I Knew: Surviving and Thriving After an Abusive Relationship, as well as Surviving Suicidal Ideation: From Therapy to Spirituality and the Lived Experience, and a contributing author for Psychology Today, ADDitude Magazine, as well as Highly Sensitive Refuge, the world’s largest blog for HSPs. Her work has been featured in Teen Vogue, Yahoo News, Lifehacker, Well + Good and Insider. You can find out more about her work at https://www.ameliakelley.com. Follow her on Instagram @drameliakelley https://www.instagram.com/drameliakelley/ https://www.facebook.com/DrAmeliaKelley https://www.linkedin.com/in/drameliakelley/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-your-corner For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast Amelia. Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:02) Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again. Michelle (00:04) It's so good to see you. So Amelia's had me on her podcast, the sensitivity doctors in the past, and I would love for you to share your background. I am really interested and very intrigued by what you do because it's something that we spoke about. I totally relate to. I love the fact that you've authored so many books and have such an interesting background. So I would love to have the. Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:26) Hehehe Michelle (00:30) audience hear you. Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:32) Sure. Well, I'm currently in my office. So I'm a trauma informed therapist, professor, and podcaster, which is how you and I met. And I've been in the field for 20 years now. I primarily work with trauma of various forms, but a lot of it is interpersonal trauma, relationship trauma, some issues with sexual abuse, some instances where I also work with per... a lot of first responders, so cops, doctors, and also folks from the military. So I'd say that my work is kind of an intersection. I sometimes call myself an integrative therapist because just before our session, I was doing a yoga therapy session. I do everything from EMDR, brain spotting, yoga therapy, art therapy is actually my background, sand play therapy. Michelle (01:02) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:27) I'm so into the brain too. I mean, I'm not, I would not say that my practice is comprehensive in neurofeedback. We do some minor interventions, but I love referring my clients to practitioners in the area to make sure that their brain health is on par too. And I also love referring to Carolina Clinic of Natural Medicine is my favorite in the area, but they do things like acupuncture and. Michelle (01:40) Hmm. Mm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:54) kind of holistic health, which I know really aligns with what you do. So, yeah. Michelle (01:59) it's interesting because as you start to do anything, you start to find out how many different layers and different ways and methodologies that certain people respond to better than others. there's just so many different methods. And I think that some people just respond better to some. Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:10) Right. Right. yeah. I think that's a great thing about coping skills. First and foremost, I love the idea of obliterating this idea that a coping skill is like work or that it's something that you only do when you're struggling. I think it's more of a lifestyle. And everyone is going to respond differently. Like I know I personally... Michelle (02:35) Yes. Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:41) water is very big for me. Like if I'm really stressed or I'm dysregulated, getting in hot water or cold water is very regulating for my nervous system. Whereas I have clients who the last thing they want to do when they're stressed or dysregulated is shower or get in water. It's actually one of the first things that they stop wanting to do. Michelle (02:51) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:04) So it's so interesting seeing how we all respond differently, I think, in our own unique nervous system when we're under stress. Michelle (03:11) Yeah, definitely. I find that also with my patients. mean, some people, be much more open to like things like meditation, other people, there's other ways to self soothing, which I call it, because ultimately, that's really what it is. So yeah, it definitely isn't work. sounds like work. Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:20) Mm Mm-hmm. Right. Michelle (03:30) but it's not work. think the biggest work is really the strategy and kind of figuring it out. But ultimately it's really there to soothe you at times that you feel overwhelmed. Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:35) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Michelle (03:44) So let's talk about the sensitive person because I've always felt that that was something that I can describe myself as when I was younger. It was something that I felt I found myself more overwhelmed by noises, by certain people's energy than other people. And people would just be like, you're too sensitive or you focus on things too much. And Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:52) Mm Okay. Michelle (04:08) It was something that I realized, as I met other people like me. I was like, wait, this is kind of a thing. And then when I learned about it, that it really is a thing, I found it really interesting. And it also, I found it very comforting. So it's like, okay, I'm like, I'm not abnormal. Like this isn't crazy. Yeah. So I would love for you to talk about that. So I feel like a lot of people can relate. Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, Mm-hmm. Definitely, and I know my aha moment was a big deal to me. It was years ago now. I stumbled upon Dr. Elaine Aaron, who is kind of the pioneer of some of the modern research on high sensitivity on her documentary, Sensitive, the Untold Story. And it was one of those light bulb aha moments that made so much of my life make sense. Interestingly though, when I dug a little deeper, she was not the of the originator of this. It was actually research done in the 80s on babies and their responses to different stimuli. Things like they had... Michelle (04:59) you Mm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:17) auditory stimulation with like a creepy face making sound. had light stimulation, physical stimulation. And what they found was that the babies who were more reactive, they were calling high reactive babies, you know, which down the road became high sensitivity. But the really interesting thing is that the researchers went and followed up with these babies who are now in their midlife, you know, they're in their I'd say probably 40s at this point, 30s and 40s. And they're finding that those high reactive babies still are more reactive adults. And so this doesn't mean someone who's highly emotional or can't control their temper when we think of reactivity. It's more, what is your reaction to sensory input? And certain brains, it is genetic. Michelle (06:07) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:10) So it's a predisposition. It is a genetic trait. It is not a diagnosis. It is not something to fix. It is rather something to learn from and grow with and manage and live life in that way. And so it's highly genetic. And for that reason, I'm not surprised I have kids who are definitely highly sensitive. And high sensitivity can express in so many different ways. It can look like Michelle (06:10) you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:39) hypersensitivity to medication, sensitivity to light, to sound, to being rushed to other people's emotions. That's a big part. The empathy piece is very strong. I think it's really important to understand the difference between empathy and compassion when we consider highly sensitive people. you, like when I say that, does that make sense to you? Do you want me to unpack that? Michelle (06:52) Mm-hmm. It does. mean, so what I'm perceiving in that is that empathy is kind of like almost giving more of your own personal energy to something versus just feeling compassion and understanding that another person's emotions or perspectives without almost taking it on. I'm not sure if I'm on or not. Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:08) Mm-hmm. Well, mean, I think that's we can all define it differently, but I guess if I was going to scientifically define compassion and empathy. So empathy is our ability to feel what someone else is feeling. We all tend to know that definition. However, the interesting thing is that empathy has a negative impact on your immune health and it increases inflammation. Right. And so when we consider the fact that highly sensitive people Michelle (07:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's interesting. Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:56) have more active mirror neurons, which means the areas of their brain designed to plan social interactions, problem solving around social interactions, and even something as simple as, as a highly sensitive person, one of my ways to decompress is to watch like trashy reality TV at night. And so I will find myself as I'm watching these dating shows, smiling with the contestants. Michelle (08:15) Yeah Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:23) or frowning with them. Sometimes I kind of laugh when I catch myself doing it. As a highly sensitive person, those areas of the brain are so much more active. And so it does make us have higher levels of empathy. But when you consider the fact that that can negatively impact your body, if you don't have enough boundaries around them, empathy is pro-social. It helps us get along, but also too much can be draining. Michelle (08:32) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:50) And so compassion is actually kind of the anecdote to empathy because compassion is centered around the desire to act or help. And so this, when we think of self-compassion, the act of speaking to yourself kindly is an act. So you empathize for yourself, I feel bad today because I made a mistake. Just thinking of an example. The compassion is, Michelle (08:50) Right. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:18) I'm going to choose to speak to myself kindly and with love because that will be curative for me. Whereas if you stay in an empathy response, you just continue to feel bad about whatever mistake you made, right? And so for highly sensitive people, it's exponentially important to lean into compassion and we can't all go out and save the world all the time. So sometimes this looks like well-wishing meditation. Michelle (09:24) Done it. Got it. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:46) processing with other like-minded people, those can be ways to express compassion that doesn't all have to be going out. And I remember, do you remember the movie Free Willy? Michelle (09:58) yeah, but I don't remember if I saw it or I don't remember the actual movie. wait, though. It was the one with the whale, right? Yes. Yeah. Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:06) Right, it was fiction, obviously, but as an HSP or an HSC at the time, a highly sensitive child, when that movie was over, I was destroyed at the thought of all these whales in the world who need help. And so my gracious parents who encouraged my sensitivity helped me find an organization where could adopt a whale. So it's like, and I mean, who knows what's happening. We probably paid $20 and... Michelle (10:29) that's cute. Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:34) I've adopted a whale, who knows, but it was the act of taking my empathy response and putting it into action with compassion that was curative for my little highly sensitive child heart. Michelle (10:34) Yeah. Hmm. That's beautiful. actually really love that. And it also makes you feel like there's more purpose in the feelings that you're having. You're kind of taking the feelings and creating purpose with it. Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:57) Absolutely. That's such a way of putting it. Michelle (11:01) And one thing too, that I was thinking about when you were talking about being highly sensitive, which I could tell you right now, I 100 % am self-diagnosed. The nervous system, I think to myself about the nervous system and possibly that having something to do with it, just having a more heightened sensitive nervous system. Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:09) Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Michelle (11:22) Besides obviously the antidote and kind of like using or acting or doing, to translate the empathy, but as one part of regulating the nervous system, learning to manage the nervous system, doing things like you said, like when you get home, take a shower, do something that really connects with your nervous system, I feel like is a really great tool. And figuring out what that is, is that something that you often look into? Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:49) Absolutely. Because if you think about just a handful of the questions that I was posing that help you identify if you're highly sensitive, a lot of them have to do with nervous system response. highly sensitives are more responsive to caffeine, drugs and alcohol, pain tolerance, hunger cues even, are more, you know, felt more intensely. So with HSPs, the nervous system, specifically the limbic system is more active. And this is something that can be seen on actual scans of HSP brains. It is. It's wild. so I was having a really interesting conversation with Michael Allison, who is one of the instructors for the Polyvagal Institute. And he was talking about, I don't think if he really fully bought into the HSP thing, I think he sees everything through the Polyvagal world. Michelle (12:20) Mm-hmm. That's so interesting. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:48) And which I totally appreciate. There's different ways to look at our nervous systems. But he said something when we were talking about highly sensitive that really struck a chord to your point about the nervous system. He was saying when our nervous system alerts danger and for him that means the vagal break is off and the vagus nerve is overactive, the heart rate is up, fight flight. When we're not feeling safe. It's usually because we're attending to something we think we need to attend to because it's out of sorts. And so the highly sensitive person, a look on your face could alert danger to me. Like someone seeming off or upset or concerned could signal that. And so for the highly sensitive person, Michelle (13:23) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:42) They need more time and research has shown up to two hours of unstructured alone time per day is most quote prescribed for highly sensitive. And so the reason being is that our baseline is higher all the time. And so we need more things to regulate the nervous system so that sounds and things and emotions aren't pulling us out of our safety zone so quickly. Michelle (13:49) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. my God, that makes sense on so many levels. I always felt like I needed, I need alone time. Like after a while, I just need to be by myself. need quiet. I need peace. And I totally understand what you're saying. And then also what's interesting is I remember when I was younger, always being afraid, like if somebody was mad at me or like, I would kind of feel a tone of like, my God, are they mad at me? And I get like really upset. And now I had to like learn to Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Michelle (14:42) just be like, okay, it's not that big of a deal. Maybe they were having a bad day, you know, sort of speak to myself on that, but that makes sense. And then I noticed that with my daughter, if sometimes I'll be busy and I won't respond with like a, you know, a full response, I'll be like, okay, okay, we'll talk later or whatever. Are you mad at me? And I always tell her, believe me, I would tell you I'm pretty clear about like what I'm happy about and not happy, you know. Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:52) Mmm. Hmm. Right. Michelle (15:07) And, but it's interesting. She'll kind of read between the lines with me. And she's like me, she just took after me. So it's kind of, yeah, so she's 19. Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:12) Mm How old is she, I ask? OK, so she's older. I was going to say, I know a great workbook, but it's for younger kids. yeah, she definitely, especially if you are too, it wouldn't surprise me that she would also be highly sensitive because it is so genetic. Michelle (15:23) Yeah. And she got like that more as she got older when she went to college than even before, for some reason. I don't know if maybe because she has a lot more going on or, she's starting to regulate on a different level, her nervous system. Cause I think that coming from home, things shift and change. Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:39) Mm-hmm. Right. Totally. mean, think it's research has shown that some high sensitivity traits, you know, can be very present in childhood, but then there's other different types of traits that become more expressed later in life. But Michelle (16:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:06) I also beg to say, let's look at the external factors. You look at someone who is a highly sensitive child who didn't have to raise children, work a job, manage a home. So when you just keep adding more to your exactly, that can make those traits become more expressed too, I believe. Michelle (16:16) Yeah, right. Yep, responsibility. Yeah, for sure. So I want to actually take this into your own journey, because I know you've had your fertility journey, because a lot of listeners, are going through the fertility journey. And I know a lot of people just based on my own clients and patients that are very sensitive and highly sensitive as well. Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle (16:48) I work a lot with them on, I don't know if you've ever heard of the NADA protocol. It's really good for PTSD. NADA, it's used, it's, yeah, yeah. So NADA, and it's a protocol that they use on the ears. it's like a, it's a series of ear points that we use like altogether. Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:54) No. I love learning new things. Tell me. NADA. I have nothing to write on. Okay. Michelle (17:12) And it works on regulating the nervous system. And it actually works amazing on it's even had published studies on working with vets, people with PTSD, like really major PTSD. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's, it's really, really interesting. And, and also interestingly enough, Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:23) I need a pen. Let me just grab one. Do you use the mustard seeds or is it actual needles? Michelle (17:33) So you could use the seeds. I use needles. I use needles. then some people, no, no, they're not mustard seeds, but they're seeds. And then some of the studies that were published, I think they even added electric stimulation. And what's interesting is it's not just really great for Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:36) They're probably not called mustard seeds. I forgot what are they actually. Mm-hmm. cool. Thank Michelle (17:51) PTSD, but it's also really good for addiction. And interesting, if you think about the two, like what do they have in common? They're kind of like, it runs, they run on a loop. You know, it's this repeated either thoughts or behaviors. And it seems to kind of have that in common. Obviously it's two different things, but sometimes can cross over. Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:56) wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. It's funny. It looks like you're on my podcast right now. So I'm like, let me take notes on what you're saying. You're so smart and knowledgeable in these areas. I love it. I will definitely check that out. I would be so curious if that's something that there are, like I said, a lot of veterans and addicts that I work with. And so I'm definitely going to look into that. Michelle (18:16) So. No, no, I know. It will... I feel the same about you. it makes for a great conversation. Yeah, definitely look into the studies. I think that that's, seeing the studies and seeing the numbers really makes a difference. And so that aspect of it is amazing. And also Joe dispense does work a lot of what he does helps tons of people with PTSD, like, they do scans and study the brains. It's pretty impactful. Yeah. Yeah. So back to you though, I would love to talk to you about how you feel, your nervous system. Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:47) Mm-hmm. That's really neat. Michelle (19:10) Like how were you able to figure out a way to balance yourself through the journey, knowing what you know, and how do you think it's impacted you on that nervous system level and like the trauma, because I know that it can be very traumatic, even though people don't often talk about it like that. It should be, it should be highlighted in that way so that more people have awareness around it because it really is a very difficult process. Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:16) Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle (19:37) has even been compared to a cancer diagnosis. It's really significant. Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:41) Wow. Well, and I actually have something about my story that integrates the two. So I think when I really look now and I understand my nervous system better, I think that the generational trauma that I was carrying with me into my reproductive years that I didn't understand that I didn't understand my high sensitivity. I didn't have a name for it. I didn't realize that that's what that was. I just thought. I just felt too much all the time. What I think that was doing was that when I was ready to try to start having a family is that I had been in flight mode. And when people think of flight mode, they think of like running the coop. I had been in flight mode being overly productive. And I laugh because I'm still overly productive, but it's in a different energy now. It's in a completely different energy than it was then. But. Michelle (20:34) Yeah. Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:39) This flight mode, think what it was doing is it was putting my nervous system in a state, like you said on my podcast, where it was never able to rest. It was never able to replenish. so my cycle was totally dysregulated. I ended up, I don't know how detailed you want me to get, but I'm happy to share. OK, OK. So I started off, we had tried to get pregnant for a couple of years and it wasn't working. And at the time, I think about it, Michelle (20:58) you can get as detailed as you need. Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:09) I was in my doctoral program. I was working at a women's clinic and the methadone clinic and trying to start my practice all at the same time and just live life and be like a normal adult. And so we went the route of Western medicine at first. I love my doctor and he worked with me through the whole journey, but we tried Clomid and I got pregnant. But I think now that I know what I know about egg quality, thank you, Rebecca Fett. She's amazing. Michelle (21:19) Bye. Yeah, she's phenomenal. I know I've tried, but she like, she wasn't really doing them. Maybe she is now, but let me know if you get her. She's great. Yes. Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:40) my gosh, I need to get her on my podcast. Let's like. We're going to like, we'll just go not tap, tap, tap. Come on. now that I understand what I know now about egg quality, I think that the clomid forced an egg that really wasn't ready to be fertilized. And so we miscarried that baby. And that was the first miscarriage and definitely the most shocking and painful miscarriage. From there, did my, one of my, I think healthier trauma coping mechanisms is research. And so I just dug in and I created this kind of like wellness plan for my husband and I had like printouts. What I didn't realize is that I was basically creating what Rebecca Fett recommends without realizing what in the world I was doing. And so I had us on a laundry list of vitamins and supplements and all these things. We got pregnant again, very. Michelle (22:33) and Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:45) very luckily with our daughter, who is now nine. And then that was the end of that. was like, OK, that went OK. Maybe it was just like that first miscarriage. Lots of people have it, statistically speaking. Then we were trying for our second child. And I feel like that's when I really got introduced to the world that you're in, which is the Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture, because we I think I had already started working with my acupunctures at that time. again, we were having a hard time getting pregnant. And so they put me on like the most disgusting tea, but it was some sort of tea regimen and these herbs. And I was doing really cool acupuncture to your point with like the little electrodes and all of that. And I did get pregnant again, but that time ended up being a molar pregnancy. Michelle (23:26) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:42) which you know what those are assume or I don't know if you're listeners. Michelle (23:46) Yes, I remember learning about it. haven't had any of my patients have that, but I remember learning about it actually in school. Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:54) Right. So the trauma of the first miscarriage was, would almost call that like acute trauma, whereas the trauma with the molar pregnancy. So a molar pregnancy, for anyone listening who doesn't know, is when the sperm and the egg join and the DNA markers are not turned on. So no actual baby starts forming, but a mass starts to form. And your body thinks you're pregnant, and so it spikes your HCG actually above kind of average levels. I thought I was pregnant with twins. was so sick. So I go in and I'm, I want to say eight, seven, eight weeks at that point that I thought and they scanned and there's no baby, which felt like a miscarriage, but it wasn't. But what happened after it was that I still had to do a DNC and then I had to do monthly HCG tests to make sure that my levels were dropping because if your levels of HCG go up at any point, have to Michelle (24:26) Mm-hmm. Right. Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:52) do chemo. So this was this chronic six month period where we couldn't try again. And every month I was going in afraid for my health. Michelle (25:00) Mm-hmm. my gosh. Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:05) Right. So that was a totally different type of trauma. And then we got pregnant again. And that one we lost at 10 weeks because it was a little boy with downs. And then we finally got pregnant with our son that we have now. But I would say during that journey of those miscarriages, that was when I really dug deep into Things like I was saying, like really taking everything serious with Chinese herbalism, looking at what I was putting in my body, looking at what was around me, my stress level, mean, meditation, really anything I could to balance my nervous system. And to your point, I think the nervous system played a role finally in us getting pregnant with our son because I think when you were on my podcast, I told you that Michelle (25:47) Yeah. Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:58) I was doing all these things, it wasn't working, and then finally I did that, quite essential, fine, I give up. I'm not doing this anymore. I went to my acupuncturist and I said, just do stress this time. Don't do any of the fertility treatments, please. I just don't want to even think about it anymore. And then it's so obnoxious to say, but three weeks later we got pregnant. Michelle (26:04) Mm-hmm. It's not, it is, it's something that I'm, well, I'm not just, know why you're saying that because people are like, what the heck? Like, it's kind of like the just relax kind of thing. saying just relax is not helpful. That's why people are like, okay, well then how, you know, that's the how, like, how do I relax? so actually let's talk about that. Cause that, that is a big thing. That's a big thing. Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:32) Right, right. Right. Well, I I let go of the outcome. Yeah, I think for me, it was letting go of the outcome. And I think that allowed my nervous system to get back to a safer baseline. To your point about asking about high sensitivity, I think what used to be the stress was work and school. The stressor became the goal. Michelle (26:52) Yeah. Yes. You know, I just hadn't, an aha, but if you want to continue, I did, I just had an aha. It's like you're taking on the responsibility of the goal. You think that it's all up to you and you're taking that weight on your shoulders. And I think that that's what it is is, and, I'm kind of thinking back cause I had Dr. Lisa Miller. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's yeah, she's amazing. You would love her. And I think she would be great on your podcast. So put her down as a Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:06) Which, what? Ooh, no, I wanna hear it. Mmm. Mm-hmm. I've heard that name. and a jotter down. Michelle (27:32) as an option or somebody. She went through the fertility journey, but separately from that, she's also a professor in Columbia. I think you would love talking to her because you're a professor as well. And she's a psychotherapist and she is studying spirituality in the brain. Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:41) good. Yeah. that's interesting. Okay. Michelle (27:50) It's fascinating. And so they found looking at, scans of brains and how they're functioning, where they're lit up, that spiritual people who are spiritual have different brains, their brains look different. And this could be the same brain of somebody who used to not be spiritual and then became spiritual. It doesn't matter. And what's interesting is, so this is my, as you were talking, not to interrupt, hopefully you're trained a thought, but Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:05) Interesting. Mm-hmm. Michelle (28:18) can come at life taking on the responsibility of every single part of our outcome and like fully micromanaging ourselves and bearing that weight or when we're spiritual, that means that we believe in a higher power or some kind of higher intelligence. We're relying on something else and not carrying all the weight. So we're just basically giving our intention out there, but, but also feeling safe enough. Like you said, safe, word safe. Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:28) Thank Mm-hmm. Yes. Michelle (28:46) to let go. So that was kind of my heart just came out. Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:48) Hmm, absolutely. No, I love it. mean, the connection makes so much sense because and it kind of makes me think of why it doesn't have to be quote religion that someone leans into. It doesn't. It can literally be if you're someone listening who is an atheist and staunchly does not believe in a higher power, it could be energy. I mean, we can't there's no denying scientifically there's energy. mean, even Michelle (29:01) Mm-hmm. No, no, it doesn't have to be religion. Right? True. Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:18) plants have been proven to grow better when we speak to them because of the energy and probably the carbon monoxide, but like you're a carbon dioxide, but not monoxide. I'm not breathing carbon monoxide, but you can't deny energy. even if someone is not religious or I would say, I would want to ask her actually, does this hold true for someone who's not quote spiritual, but Michelle (29:25) Yeah, yeah, yeah, dioxide. Totally. understood. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:44) who gives up things to the idea of energy. I want to ask her that. Michelle (29:48) That's a great question. when you do have her on, let me know, because I'll be listening to the podcast. Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:53) for sure. For sure. Thanks for the tip for the, I'll definitely check her out and reach out. Michelle (29:57) Yeah, but it's fascinating. And I think to myself, I think that that might be that trusting in something else, trusting in an outcome or kind of releasing or relinquishing that burden and that responsibility. And that I guess that that was the aha is like taking on that responsibility of really trying to, take on the outcome, like as if you really have all of the responsibility and how it turns out and that burden and that feeling and that blame. Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:06) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now I'm having an aha. Well, yes, I'm having an aha because high sensitivity. So I was talking about the mirror neurons earlier and the empathy overload with highly sensitives. Highly sensitive people, we do tend to naturally take on the responsibility of other people's emotions. And we also, even one of the questions that Dr. Aaron poses is, Michelle (30:29) Tell me. This is great. We bounce off each other really well. Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:54) Do you know how to make people comfortable in a room? Like things like changing the lighting and the volume and the temperature in the room. I think even as a highly sensitive person, we kind of naturally take on the responsibility of the environment. And that's why some HSPs who are not high sensation seekers, who are just, you know, kind of more of the traditional introverted expression of it, they really get overwhelmed in social settings and they don't love hosting. Michelle (31:19) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:23) because it's too much to micromanage. I'm a high sensation seeking HSP, so I do enjoy hosting and having people over at my home. However, the hours leading up to the event, I need quiet and calm. I've got like a hairpin trigger nervous system leading up to inviting people in my space, even though I love it. It's like this weird. Michelle (31:24) you Mm-hmm. Hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:52) dichotomy. yeah, letting go of responsibility, think, releases the nervous system of a highly sensitive person as well. Michelle (32:00) Yeah. And it's so interesting that you're saying that because like, I look back at my childhood, I was a really good imitator. And that just makes sense because you pick up on the little details of people's behavior and energy and you mirror that like literally. Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:09) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm so curious and envious because I'm terrible at accents. Like, terrible. Really? Mm-hmm. Michelle (32:26) Yeah, I used to, I would do it even when I wasn't trying. I would start to take on like, I would do it on purpose and when I wasn't trying, like I would just pick up on like certain behaviors or certain like tones and things. And I would kind of like take on like the energy of friends that would have very specific ways of talking. And I would almost be like, like I would catch myself. like, that's weird. I don't want to do that. Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're like, I don't want to look like I'm really imitating them. This might get awkward. Michelle (32:55) For sure. But it's just so fascinating. and then you're talking also highly sensitive persons that they could also have glucose sensitivity. You were saying you were talking about the physical sensitivity, right? Like that sometimes it could be allergies or other things and it's not just emotional. Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:06) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Well, so if you think about, it's not that they're going to have more unstable blood sugar from a technical medical stance. It's that the highly sensitive nervous system can sense peaks and valleys more than someone who is not highly sensitive. So they might respond more to hunger cues and may feel more Michelle (33:29) Mm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:39) panic or anxiety or stress in the state of hunger. So they may be more likely to be the person that reaches for something to re-stabilize glucose. But then you can see how depending on someone's metabolic health, that might not fit well into whatever their health goals are. So I think of my non- he's actually quite highly sensitive now, but my husband- I'm going grab water. Michelle (33:43) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Got it. Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:08) Sorry. My husband, who is a little bit less sensitive and has a more stable metabolic system, when he's hungry, it doesn't cause as much distress. Michelle (34:08) Sure. Got it. Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:20) If that makes sense. Michelle (34:21) a body awareness thing. because HSPs are probably much more aware of how their bodies feel because a, immediately feel it. And then that impacts their emotions or how they feel mentally. Cause a lot of emotions get processed and they're really felt in the body. think, a lot of times people don't realize that it's why somatic. Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:39) Mm-hmm. Michelle (34:43) work can be so beneficial. Have you looked into somatic work? Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:48) I do offer some forms of somatic work. I am not a somatic-experiencing practitioner. That takes a full, it's almost like a whole separate degree. But I actually find what you're saying very important to highlight, too, because HSPs, while anyone listening might think, goodness, OK, I'm highly sensitive. Now what? Does this just mean that I'm in for it? Everything's going to be harder? Michelle (34:57) wow. Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:14) The good thing, the hopeful thing is that HSPs also respond more to positives. So they feel more positive sensation from things like a massage or acupuncture or homeopathy or different aromatherapies. They're really going to benefit from it. I think that's why Michelle (35:20) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:39) My HSPs tend to stay in therapy longer. So HSPs are kind of a stronger ratio in therapy, not only because the world can feel more traumatizing at some points for HSPs, but because they just get so much out of it. I think it also leads to things like food can taste even better. Music can sound even more beautiful. Movies can be even more moving. So there's these... Michelle (35:58) Mm-hmm. There's benefits. Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:09) Yeah, there's this, I wouldn't give it up. I wouldn't want to be less sensitive just because it would make me a little bit less likely to reach for a snack in the afternoon. So there's this yin and yang to it. Michelle (36:14) brain. Yes. For sure. I actually like just from my own journey based on that, what I offer a lot of my patients and I always talk to them about it when I perceive that they get overwhelmed by stimulation. That was really how I saw it. I would say that it's not about changing that it's a gift actually, cause it could also teach you to be very aware of other people's feelings and Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Michelle (36:50) And that can be a great thing for healers, to be honest, because you're a lot more likely to be able to understand the people that you're working with. It's not about changing. It's more about managing, kind of figuring out ways to stabilize so that it works for you. Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:53) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Absolutely. And I think that's the whole key of identifying whether or not you're one and why it's important. I've had clients who come in with a laundry list of diagnoses from other practitioners, usually because what's going on is trauma and it's being misdiagnosed as many other things, just my clinical opinion. But when I say maybe you're also highly sensitive, sometimes they just throw their arms up like another thing. And it's like, no, no. Michelle (37:36) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:37) This is a key. This is a huge level of insight that can inform everything from your fertility journey for people listening, from trauma, from navigating. Anytime something stands in your way of getting where you want to be, if you know, well, I'm highly sensitive, so I will be more likely to succeed at this thing or accomplish this thing or feel better about this thing if I take my sensitivity into account. Michelle (38:01) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:07) Perfect example, I had a very heavy day yesterday. had, I think, eight clients, a podcast, an interview, and a class. It was too much. It was a heavy, heavy day. I get home and my husband had managed to fix the voice-changing microphone toy that my kids have that had been broken that I wasn't rushing to fix. so I come in the house. They run to me. They're so excited to see me, so I'm excited to see them. Michelle (38:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha! Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:35) and then they start in on this microphone. The last thing I wanted was to hear that microphone. But I know I didn't want to ruin their fun. So I know about me that I am going to be sensitive to sound when I'm overstimulated. So I went into my bag. I got my loop earbuds. If no one's ever heard of them, they're great for dampening noise around you, but you can still hear people. Popped my earbuds in. I didn't feel like I had to mask the issue of being sensitive to the noise. Michelle (38:56) Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:03) My family knows this about me. It wasn't anything against my kids. It was just, I'm going to pop these in so you can still have fun, but I can feel peaceful. And that's, think, a compassionate way to care for yourself is when you know these things about yourself, you can do things to help you still integrate and feel happy and peaceful in your life, but not have to push away what really is true. Michelle (39:17) Mm-hmm. I love that. actually really love that. It actually, the idea of highly sensitive, I don't mind it. Although I do think that there's definitely a lot of labels. I don't see this as one because the reason why I'm saying this, it reminds me of human design where you find out your strengths and sensitivities. Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:42) Yes. Michelle (39:47) and I think that once you know those, so it's not like a disorder, you know, cause we, think we hear all these different labels. think of it as like all these disorders. It's not no. And so that's the thing with this. I feel like it brings a lot of clarity. I, as a sensitive person Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:54) Mm-hmm. It's not even a diagnosis. Michelle (40:05) it really makes me understand myself more and manage it more. Just like you said, and I think that that is the key rather than getting frustrated with my husband who likes to really over explain. And sometimes I'm like, okay, my brain is like just on fire right now. And I have to explain that to, like, I know to explain that to him, like, it's not you, it's just me. He like right now I'm overloaded with information. I need a little quiet. Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:10) Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. my gosh. Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Michelle (40:33) So I think that when you do that, you'll also come at explaining things in a way that's more compassionate and easier to communicate rather than getting frustrated because you'll understand yourself better. And you understand sort of the situation that somebody else might not have that level of sensitivity and you do so they may not realize it. And I just feel like it really puts so much clarity to the situation. Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:41) Right. Right. Right. absolutely. if you happen to have kids or if you're on this fertility journey and in the future you're blessed with kids, the likelihood of them maybe being sensitive is quite high. And so you will be able to model for them. I joke one day, my daughter was probably three or four at the time, and she kept asking me for things in the bathroom. like, what is she doing? I walked in and she was laying in the tub with a book and a cup. Michelle (41:17) Yes. Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:30) and a towel over her face. And I'm like, what are you doing? She goes, I'm being mommy. I know, but it made me really proud too, because I'm like, OK, great. So this has been modeled for her. And you know, one thing we didn't even mention that we probably should have mentioned at the very beginning, high sensitivity is not abnormal. It's an adaptive trait. And it is a third. Up to a third of the human population is highly sensitive. Michelle (41:35) That's really cute. Yeah. you Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:59) And there are ranges. So you have high sensitivity, medium sensitivity, and there are actually people who are low sensitive as well. Like their nervous system takes a lot of stimulation to be activated. And you might notice if you start learning this about yourself, you'll be able to start reflecting on people in your life and how you respond to them. And there might be people you can get to depth with a little bit more easily. Those might be your other co-HSPs. Michelle (42:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:29) And this is not just humans. The research shows this is in hundreds of animal species, even bugs. So it's everywhere. It's part of nature. It's part of nature, essentially. Michelle (42:38) Wow, that's fascinating. That's so interesting. It's wild. You know, and I think to myself, like one of the things that I noticed, and it's so interesting that you said this, because I noticed that my patients, One of the things that I really observe is how they respond to treatments. Not everybody responds as quick. Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:52) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle (42:58) Some people take a little longer. so I can come up with like my first protocol, but then I realized I need to shift it a little bit, depending on how they do, or sometimes I'll even use baby needles on people who are very, very sensitive. Cause I don't want to overdo it with their nervous system. They don't need the strong needles. They don't need the strong stimulation cause they feel it already. And the people that have that body awareness Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Right. Right. Michelle (43:22) is that when they have that body awareness, I feel like they respond to treatment a lot faster. Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:28) Mm hmm. Yep. You're right. Just like we were saying that you'll get more good out of the good. Michelle (43:31) Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. I can talk to you for hours. I really enjoy our conversations. It's a lot of fun. I'll come back and then I'll have you back because I'm sure we can come up with like all kinds of things to talk about. Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:37) I know I have to have you back now. Well, and you know the funny thing, so I'll tell your listeners my podcast is The Sensitivity Doctor, and I have folks on all the time to talk about different topics around sensitivity. Do you know I have not had an episode literally just talking about what it means to be a highly sensitive person? I would love to have you on to have a chat about what it means to another highly sensitive person, and we can just unpack it. Because we talk about it extraneously around it, but I'm like, Michelle (44:04) really? Let's do it. Let's do it. Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:16) Yeah, we should just unpack what that means. So I would love to have you back. Michelle (44:20) That would be great. I really enjoy talking to you. can just like totally pick your brain. You're so interesting to talk to. I got really, and I love your energy and you're also the way you approach it in such an empowering way. I love that. Like I think it's just amazing. yeah, yeah, this is fun. I'm really excited. I actually met you. Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:26) thank you. You too. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Yeah, it was a good it was a good meeting Michelle (44:41) it was definitely a great meeting. So I would love for you to share for people listening and if they want to learn more, if they want to read your books, how they can reach you and how they can work with you. Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:47) Mm-hmm. Sure, so as I was mentioning, I do have my podcast that comes out every Thursday. But if you want to learn basically anything that I have to offer, it's on my website at AmeliaKelly.com, and that's Kelly with an EY. And I have links to my Psychology Today blog. It's called In Your Corner. I've got meditations on Insight Timer on there. There's a couple different quizzes, like if you want to figure out if you're in a... trauma bond, if you want to learn if you're a highly sensitive person, I have an assessment on there. I also offer what I think to be the most important tools from some of my books that I want to make available to everyone for free, like the safety plan of how to get out of domestic violence situations, suicide safety plan, gas lighting checklist, like some of the things that I feel like everyone really should just have. You don't need to go buy the book. Those are available too. So you can also find links for all my books and I also have a group that I meet every Tomorrow actually it's meeting. It's every other Thursday It's called powered by ADHD and it's for women with ADHD and sometimes we have guest speakers on which we're gonna have tomorrow night so I'm excited about that and I love that because it's a resource that women anywhere in the world can reach out You don't have to be in the state of North Carolina where I'm licensed. So virtually anyone who is a woman or identifies as a woman can join that. of course. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you'll come back. Awesome.